please empty your brain below
I don't know the gate layout at Heathrow, if you travel via Ealing Broadway will the system be able to tell how you got there, or are pink readers being installed at Ealing Broadway.

dg writes: The Piccadilly line and TfL Rail platforms are very very separate, indeed some considerable hike apart.

Still Anon | 15.05.18 - 7:20 a.m. | #

Acton Main Line, West Ealing and Hanwell lost their Sunday services many, many moons ago. They only have platforms on the 'relief' lines and often trains run only on the 'main' lines on Sundays (and on other Sundays the relief lines are full of trains). Maybe this was because of (many years of) Crossrail works and there will be four tracks on Sundays in the not-too-distant future.

Wolf | 15.05.18 - 7:23 a.m. | #

Great news if Heathrow Express is finally getting contactless. At Gatwick, contactless has been a huge success. It also came with quite a substantial drop in off peak fare. Have the contactless fares to Heathrow been published next yet?

dg writes: Heathrow Express will accept Oyster and Contactless from September. £22, kerching.

Dan | 15.05.18 - 7:25 a.m. | #

I live in London and am confused by all of this. No hope at all for the innocent visitors ...

Liz | 15.05.18 - 7:28 a.m. | #

I wonder whether a small claims court action might succeed if a punter relies on the TfL's own most freely available information (the map) showing clearly that Heathrow on TfL rail is in Zone 6?

100andthirty | 15.05.18 - 8:30 a.m. | #

If I remember correctly, the Piccadilly line at the time of its opening had a premium ticket price for travel to Heathrow airport.

coffin dodger | 15.05.18 - 8:32 a.m. | #

Are those fares going to continue after December ?

kev | 15.05.18 - 9:21 a.m. | #

You say the HEX route is on the map, but it isn't on the bit you've shown!

MiKe Roberts | 15.05.18 - 9:37 a.m. | #

@Mike Roberts
HEx is simply a non-stop service over the same line as Heathrow Connect/TfL Rail/Crossrail/whatever.

The legend next to the dagger is pointless - since T23 and T5 are both in Zone 6, onward connections to T5 would be at no extra charge even if the Freezone didn't exist. Might as well have a dagger at Finchley Central:
"Underground passengers should change at Finchley Central for free rail transfer to Mill Hill East"

timbo again | Homepage | 15.05.18 - 10:17 a.m. | #

100andthirty,

The thought went through my head too. In the past you probably didn't have a case but I think now you would have a very good one as rail fares are covered by the Consumer Protection Act. But you would have to show you were genuinely misled.

Pedantic of Purley | 15.05.18 - 10:35 a.m. | #

As a general point, this has now effectively become stage 0 of transferring the services to Crossrail. It wasn't intended to be that way.

So TfL take over some existing trains, replace others with their own but to the existing timetable pattern and put the service on the tube map. But not much else.

So moans about lack of a Sunday service, an infrequent Sunday service and some other stuff won't necessarily hold true once the full service begins.

Pedantic of Purley | 15.05.18 - 10:40 a.m. | #

the undeclared fare surcharge to LHR reminds me of when i got a Javelin from Liverpool Street to Stratford, and was rather shocked by the fare - and only saved a few minutes.

ADS | Homepage | 15.05.18 - 11:06 a.m. | #

Note to self: Never go shopping 5 minutes before someone points out an error.

Post updated, thanks.

You can relive all the "Does Heathrow Connect go to T4 or T5?" comments here: comments (11)

diamond geezer | Homepage | 15.05.18 - 12:01 p.m. | #

The mention on the map of a free service is not entirely daft. The service is also free if you have arrived by some other means of transport (bus, plane, flying carpet etc). Such arrivers are quite numerous and may well look at a tube map. This does not apply at Finchley Central.

Malcolm | 15.05.18 - 12:47 p.m. | #

Once Crossrail opens, Network Rail will still require lengthy Sunday possessions, necessitating closures of two out of the four tracks into Paddington and/or Liverpool Street. If anyone expects Crossrail to run a 'turn up and go' service on those days they are very much mistaken.

straphan | 15.05.18 - 12:57 p.m. | #

Airport fares have traditionally been expensive and confusing , especially as tourists are considered fair game. But last week I was surprised to find that, depending on the time of day, Oyster can be much more expensive OR much cheaper than a paper ticket.

For example, peak Oyster Gatwick - London Bridge is poor value at £14.70 because it’s easily beaten by the paper Anytime Day Single at £11.60; restrict your choice to Thameslink or Southern and the paper ticket drops to £10.70 or £9.80.

However, the situation is reversed later in the day: there are no off-peak paper tickets so the £8.30 off-peak Oyster is always cheaper.

But Oyster has the last laugh because it has an unexpected trick up its sleeve: split ticketing! Touch out and in at East Croydon and peak Oyster drops from £14.70 to £10.50 (cheaper than everything except Southern), and off-peak Oyster drops from £8.30 to an unbeatable £6.50.

Gerry | 15.05.18 - 12:59 p.m. | #

Also, if someone wants to save a few bob, they can get off at Hayes & Harlington station and grab the 140 bus. Runs every few minutes, and takes only 20 minutes to Heathrow Bus Station even in the peak.

straphan | 15.05.18 - 1:43 p.m. | #

I am no lawyer but... although the map could be construed as a mistake - DG has spotted similar errors before, the line diagram, if this is the one actually fitted to trains, TfL Rail would seem to me on the face of it to be potentially fraudulent.

Jon B | 15.05.18 - 1:55 p.m. | #

I will be in Heathrow some time on that very day, but I think I will spare myself from this mess as I am going to catch a £1.50 bus instead.

Patrickov | 15.05.18 - 1:58 p.m. | #

@PoP. Surely this is stage 0.5? Stage 0 was the transfer of the Shenfield to Liverpool Street service.

dg writes: That's the 74th use of the word "surely" in a comment so far this year.

IslandDweller | 15.05.18 - 2:03 p.m. | #

I do think TfL have made a mistake with not declaring the special fare regime that applies for single journeys to / from Heathrow. The map is correct in terms of Travelcard / capping but that's only 50% of the story.

In the "old days" TfL / LU did used to declare where different fares applied on some services. The Bakerloo Line north of Queens Park to Harrow had BR fares for a long while before the eventual consolidation of fares on that routes. That difference was certainly shown on the in car line diagrams.

I suspect TfL will have to revisit both the line diagrams and Tube Map in respect of Heathrow once stakeholders and others twig what's been done.

PC | 15.05.18 - 2:26 p.m. | #

Jon B,

Actually, I don't think what is shown on the train matters much as you made your decision to make the journey (and believed it was a certain fare) before you boarded the train.

There is a classic legal case of a seaside council hiring deckchairs. The attendant comes round and issues a ticket to people using the facility. The conditions are on the back of the ticket but you had no means of knowing these conditions at the time you agreed to the contract by sitting on a deck chair. So they are void. But, if this is your second occasion ...

Pedantic of Purley | 15.05.18 - 2:45 p.m. | #

IslandDweller,

I was thinking of stage 0 of the Paddington - Heathrow Implementation.

Otherwise it is stage 1.5 of the overall Crossrail implementation. But I wanted to convey the fact that really this is just a prerequisite to taking over 'proper' and enhancing the service.

Pedantic of Purley | 15.05.18 - 2:48 p.m. | #

The big problem with the tube to and from Heathrow is that it's quite an unpleasant journey, especially with suitcases and at peak times. Getting on a full sized train is far preferable than the tube, particularly if you've had an early arrival into Heathrow and will hit central London in the morning peak.

When crossrail is fully running, where I live in Whitechapel to Heathrow will be so much better than the current District/Piccadilly option and worth the extra money

Lumma | 15.05.18 - 3:06 p.m. | #

Also, TfL Rail has air and mobile phone coverage. Picc doesn't.

dg writes: Does.

Silent Hunter | Homepage | 15.05.18 - 3:56 p.m. | #

Turns out that the GWML is meant to go four track at weekends from January next year (in the opinion of GWR) although Network Rail do not agree.

Wolf | 15.05.18 - 4:19 p.m. | #

This whole system is even more of a farce because of the different signalling used in the Heathrow Tunnels compared to the rest of the GWML.

I'm no train expert, but essentially the brand new Crossrail Class 345 trains have been struggling to operate under the other signalling system in the Heathrow Tunnels (indeed the current HeX stock is being replaced in a bid to rid of the system altogether) so they can't make it beyond Hayes & Harlington.

So the two trains per hour to Hayes will operate with the new Crossrail trains, whilst the existing Class 360s will be rented in the mean time until the 345s can work properly.

All these delays don't bode well for Crossrail opening on time and in the West some of the stations are still in disrepair and there's no chance that the works will be completed on time.

LBOTG | Homepage | 15.05.18 - 4:21 p.m. | #

The optimistic cynic in me is wondering if Tfl actually want this to be challenged in court, so they can point out that the higher fares are due to BAA and not them, maybe even getting BAA to lower them due to the publicity.

G | 15.05.18 - 5:30 p.m. | #

I genuinely misread "Acton Main Line" as 'Action Man Line.

drD | Homepage | 15.05.18 - 5:37 p.m. | #

They could place a big dotted line marked 'BAA TUNNEL TOLL: £5' on the map. That would get the message across!

James | 15.05.18 - 6:30 p.m. | #

Sydney Airport is far worse: there's a Station Access Fee of £7.91 each time you pass through.

If your hotel is near the airport, a return to Circular Quay (only 7 miles away) costs £20.69 so it's worth walking to Mascot from where a return is only £3.83.

Gerry | 15.05.18 - 7:17 p.m. | #

It's mad spending billions building this incredibly expensive and impressive new cross London railway, but then still having to use infrastructure owned by the airport for the last couple of miles, meaning a large surcharge on the ticket price.

I'm amazed that the tunnels weren't bought from Heathrow Airport Limited as part of the Crossrail project.

Mikey C | 15.05.18 - 7:55 p.m. | #

HAL wouldn't sell - why would they, when it's a nice little earner for them?

timbo again again | Homepage | 15.05.18 - 8:56 p.m. | #

The map shows Travelcard zones. It makes no claim to show fares, though inevitably many readers of this blog will think they can work them out from the map. The Single Fare Finder on the TfL website is the only definitive source of the fare for a specific payg journey.

Ralph Ayres | 15.05.18 - 10:31 p.m. | #

Maybe so, but nowhere else on the tube map is there an unlabelled Magic Tunnel, the use of which will suddenly cost you £5 extra.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 15.05.18 - 11:06 p.m. | #

Gerry: in some respects Sydney airport is far better, in that there's a well-publicised flat surcharge for using the airport stations, irrespective of the train or ticket used (though it may be lower for Opal card users - not sure). Everything is clear and simple (if expensive).

Betterbee | 15.05.18 - 11:49 p.m. | #

While the absence of the details of Heathrow fares may be misleading, don't forget that all zonal trips are already not equal. At least four different farescales currently apply, so a zone 1-6 trip can already cost a varying amounts - TfL Rail/Elizabeth line just adds another variation. See the excellent https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/ for full (baffling) detail.

Betterbee | 15.05.18 - 11:58 p.m. | #

Does anyone know if TFL are going to honour the Freedom pass/60+ Oyster cards on Heathrow Connect/Crossrail to Heathrow?

Gordon | 16.05.18 - 9:02 a.m. | #

@Gordon

Yes, Freedom Passes will be valid to Heathrow, and even to Reading when the Elizabeth line gets there. I was surprised at TfL's generosity in the latter case.

Recliner | 16.05.18 - 9:12 a.m. | #

Isn’t the Freedom Pass thing not so much generosity as a legal requirement?

Bryn Davies | 16.05.18 - 9:16 a.m. | #

@Bryn
Freedom passes validity has to meet the minimum requirements of the English National Concessionary Pass scheme. This means it has to be valid on all buses in England between 0930 and 2300 on working days, and all day at weekends. That is the only legal requirement.

In particular, passes issued to residents of Slough, Maidenhead and Reading will not be valid on the TfL-Cross-Liz services passing through their area.

timbo again again again | Homepage | 16.05.18 - 10:17 a.m. | #

@Ralph The map may show Travelcard Zones but check the poster version and very clearly it marks the Shenfield area as "Special Fares Apply" It would be very simple to say that round Heathrow. We already have the special shading for the joint Zone 2 and 3 area near dg towers.

[photo of new tube map]

ap | 16.05.18 - 10:31 a.m. | #

@timbo again again

But then HAL are trying to get approval for the 3rd runway, and trying to cope with the dismal air quality around the airport

Getting more people to the airport by rail would help, and not having this HAL surcharge for using the tunnels would cut the fares and encourage use. Maybe this could be part of the planning approval process...

Mikey C | 16.05.18 - 10:38 a.m. | #

And one of the many West London bus routes to be cut when Betty opens is the 427.Currently runs from Uxbridge to Acton High Street.Will be diverted at Southall Town Hall to Southall Station in December.Will no longer serve ...Hanwell, West Ealing & Acton!!

KEVIN LUCIONI | 16.05.18 - 1:08 p.m. | #

Its "FREE" because its advertised within the airport as such to give flyers transferring between terminals a free shuttle service. I did note that its also going to be FREE for me to use with my Freedom Pass! I can go to Shenfield on it already so I am hoping I can go to Reading too for free?

Drew | Homepage | 16.05.18 - 8:14 p.m. | #

On the line diagram with the timetable there it s a bit St the bottom of the diagram that says "special fares apply" it's just above the zone 6 trapezoid.

Richard Jeeves | 16.05.18 - 9:30 p.m. | #

@Drew

Yes, as already stated, the Elizabeth line will be free all the way to Reading for Freedom Pass holders.

Recliner | 16.05.18 - 9:45 p.m. | #

What I'm confused about is how passengers without any contactless bank cards are supposed to transfer between terminals for free. It's not free if they need to buy an Oyster which won't be refundable until 48 hours after purchase, by when they may have departed London.

John | 17.05.18 - 8:47 a.m. | #

John @ 8.47
Considering the numbers going through Heathrow - notably tourists - huge sums will be made here. Hard to believe that no-one working in Tfl et al can have noticed the point you make. There's one word for it: scam

Also i wonder if the reason for imposing ticket gates where there is free travel could possibly to ensure that the homeless, beggars er al do not have endless free travel between the terminals all day

dg writes: No, the reason for introducing ticket gates is to ensure that Oyster and contactless work for passengers entering and exiting the airport.

Le Ver Blanc | 17.05.18 - 9:48 a.m. | #

Apart from all that, I noticed a map on a station wall today and decided they have made the grey fare zones much too dark, making it ugly and difficult to read, and the Zone2/3 blob even more intolerable. Time for TfL to sack their map people and start again.

A slightly amusing thing from the image in the post is that it looks as though they have already transferred Ealing Broadway to the Piccadilly line.

NickW | 17.05.18 - 11:26 p.m. | #

They've messed up the new posters. Where's New Addington?

[Ian Visits tweet]

daveid76 | 20.05.18 - 7:48 p.m. | #

There is another mistake on the tube map, although this one is more subtle than the New Addington one. Southall Station will still be served by Great Western Railway trains, even after Crossrail is introduced. Shouldn't Southall Station also have a National Rail red double arrow sign next to it on the tube map and the onboard train maps?

_ak121_ | 23.05.18 - 8:02 p.m. | #

TfL run trains as a National Rail operator - its absurd IMHO that they are allowed to delete/remove the NR symbol. Think of how confusing that is for many people, notably tourists.

Even at stations TfL run ouright - like West Croydon they just go ahead and paint it all orange and put up roundels everywhere - ignoring the fact that another NR TOC (southern) also run trains through there.

There should always be a NR symbol displayed at a rail station whose trains feature in the NR timetable

Le Ver | 23.05.18 - 8:20 p.m. | #











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