please empty your brain below
The road sign picture at Locksbottom is headed The Fantail. I must have passed it countless times without realising that. The Fantail was a restaurant on that junction though it has been renamed as Chapter One for at least ten years.

Brian | 02.10.18 - 7:41 a.m. | #

The brick footings in the depths of Crofton Woods you described as a walled garden are the remains of a smallpox isolation hospital.

John B | 02.10.18 - 7:52 a.m. | #

Excellent post, with you every step of the way.

Waterhouse | 02.10.18 - 9:02 a.m. | #

Loved reading this. I grew up near here and spent a lot of my childhood by by the river in Chislehurst.

First a interesting story: as the Kydbrook approaches Chislehurst station from Hawkswood it goes into a long tunnel which only comes out the other side by Chislehurst Caves. My mum was keen walker and noticed that every summer a very large crop of wild garlic would appear here (and still does).

She related to me once that she heard on the radio that Roman soldiers used to put wild garlic into the base of their sandals to avoid bruising their feet when walking and carrying all their gear. Thus she hypothesised that this was why their was a huge amount of wild garlic at this point on Gosshill Road.

She noted that there was an ancient British settlement on the top of the hill outside Keston (a natural place as its the source of multiple springs on both sides, notably the Ravensbourne and the Kydbrook). When the Romans came they took it over and apparently named it "Caesars Camp" (like a similar place in Wimbledon).

With this in mind, she envisaged that the Roman soldiers, following the course of the Kydbrook from the camp in Keston and stopping for a rest, took out their old wild garlic here and replaced it - leaving the huge crop of wild garlic we see each year at this site: (https://goo.gl/maps/Ge1fhyY5VxC2))

Every summer I see the fresh wild garlic I try and imagine a platoon of Roman soldiers resting here (also said to haunt Chislehurst Caves) and throwing out their old wild garlic from their feet and putting new garlic in.

One final question if I may: The Quaggy starts in Lewisham, and has that name until at least Mottingham. Then its called the Kydbrook. This has always confused me. Does anyone know why and where the actual source of the Quaggy is?

Le Ver | 02.10.18 - 9:45 a.m. | #

The footpath by the Hawkwood Estate is part of London Loop 2, rather than 3. I only know this because I walked the 3 yesterday and the 2 last week. I'll probably have to walk them again now I know what I'm supposed to be looking out for.

dg writes: Updated, thanks.

Adrian | 02.10.18 - 9:52 a.m. | #

Thank you, Le Ver, for the story of the garlic.
Fascinating.

Joho | 02.10.18 - 10:11 a.m. | #

As well as the Kyd Brook, which is the name for the upper Quaggy, there are also three Kid Brooks - short tributaries near Kidbrooke.

It's all horribly complicated.

This excellent series of Quaggy-related posts (including map) should explain more.

Meanwhile the Quaggy Waterways Action Group has a detailed website, including a couple of maps, and suggests that the Quaggy rises in Sundridge Park.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 02.10.18 - 10:14 a.m. | #

"Tugmutton Common" is my new favourite euphemism.

Scott | Homepage | 02.10.18 - 10:16 a.m. | #

Wonderful! And a cat too!

Leuconoe | 02.10.18 - 10:47 a.m. | #

It feels like it's been a while since the last Unlost River post - glad the drought is over!

Cornish Cockney | 02.10.18 - 11:17 a.m. | #

A good read,DG. An unlost river and in LB Bromley, what better? 👍🏻

Jo W | 02.10.18 - 2:27 p.m. | #

"a large group of gypsies, who failed to endear themselves to the local population, who grouped together to enclose the site and see them off. Their descendants are a friendlier bunch, meeting twice a month on Wednesdays for a spot of litter picking"

You must be having a laugh?

Temp | 02.10.18 - 3:47 p.m. | #

Lovely. Now I'm about to dive into the Quaggy stuff.
And this has also reminded me of an episode of 'Coast' where the bloke is on the Thames and is taken in by someone who waxes lyrical about Henry VIII building a navy from oak hewn from the forests of Kent and floated down the mighty Ravensbourne to the King's Dockyard at Deptford.
Blimey!

Chris | 02.10.18 - 4:58 p.m. | #

I write the Running Past blog that you have kindly linked to - thank you. In terms of a few questions above - the Kyd Brooks are the sources of the Quaggy, there is probably another one too around Darrick Wood too. The Quaggy as a name starts in Sundridge Park but it is the same river as the one described.

The Kyd and the trio of Kid Brooks are a bit confusing- all seem to derive from an old word for Kite.

Thank for for pointing out my failure to distinguish east and west - I’ll amend at some point.

Paul Browning | Homepage | 02.10.18 - 8:03 p.m. | #

Cheers Paul!

Don't switch your easts and wests - the map on the information board in Crofton Woods is quite clear that the East Kyd Brook is the western fork.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 02.10.18 - 8:47 p.m. | #

Great post; Running Past deserves to be in a "21 Blogs" sidebar.

NickW | Homepage | 02.10.18 - 10:57 p.m. | #

Also spent childhood in Chislehurst and remember messing about along Gosshill Road which was a mud track in the early 80's. Once with a friend found a stash of "men's" magazines sort of hidden at the base of a tree. A long time ago now!

Iain Mitchell | 03.10.18 - 2:56 p.m. | #

This is my old manor - I was born in Farnborough. In fact those 19th century gypsies included my great great grandmother, Gypsy Lee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYCt6FDYueI

tintinhaddock | 03.10.18 - 5:10 p.m. | #











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