please empty your brain below
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Suppression of young voters pure and simple, sadly. It is pathetic.
Connor | 04.05.23 - 7:28 a.m. | #
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It's a disgraceful development for UK democracy, a solution in search of a problem. We ought to be finding more modern ways to register votes to improve levels of engagement, not making it more difficult to persuade people that voting is important.
Frank F | 04.05.23 - 7:42 a.m. | #
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And don’t forget that other rigging of the electoral system that has happened too.
Changing the system for Mayor of London to FPTP.
No consultation, no referendum. No just slip it in.
Southern Heights (Light Railway) | 04.05.23 - 7:46 a.m. | #
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Agree entirely. Just pointing out though that you mention that with a driving licence “the younger you are the less likely you are to have passed your test” which doesn’t really matter since provisional licences are listed as acceptable ID.
Kirsty | 04.05.23 - 7:50 a.m. | #
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This would seem to make a mockery of the term "Secret Ballot". I know they won't see the actual vote but it seems to be a step in the wrong direction. I live in Australia where voting is compulsory and we do not have to show photo ID to vote.
Peter Watmore | 04.05.23 - 7:54 a.m. | #
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The only fair and sensible way to introduce photo ID for polling is a national ID card, but we’ve already had many national conversations on that and rejected it. Requiring ID which only middle class voters are very likely to have is an absurd and undemocratic halfway house.
Dan | 04.05.23 - 7:58 a.m. | #
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In my view you’re all incorrect and biased by your experience to date. This brings voting more in line with the rest of the world and todays modern world. It’s a step in the right direction to provide proof that you are voting only once and you are who you say you are.
A Non | 04.05.23 - 8:01 a.m. | #
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Well said, dg
Terry | 04.05.23 - 8:03 a.m. | #
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There isn't a need. But also this won't be changing under the next Labour government. Unless Starmer has flipped again.
I'd say making voting compulsory would have been better than bringing in the need for ID. As then maybe politicians would have to actually work to get peoples votes and not just rely on a core.
Martin | 04.05.23 - 8:05 a.m. | #
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The government is either trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist or suppressing the youth vote. There will be more people unable to vote or turned away at the ballot box than people attempting to commit electoral fraud.
The ID list includes the Older Person’s Bus Pass, Oyster 60+ Card, and Freedom Pass, but doesn't include 18+ student's Oysters, Student ID, or national railcards, even though they are almost equivalent in identification information.
The House of Lords even passed a bipartisan amendment allowing more forms of voter ID, yet the conservative-controlled House of Commons rejected these amendments. It's not a mistake - the government know what they're doing.
TW | 04.05.23 - 8:22 a.m. | #
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It is getting harder to function in modern society without any identification now, people look confused when you don't have photo ID.
Young people will regard it as normal, and the older ones will die off.
Still Anon | 04.05.23 - 8:28 a.m. | #
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I requested a postal vote for today’s election. The form I had to sign (separate from the ballot paper) asked for my date of birth in xx/mm/yyyy format. The year box helpfully came pre-printed with 19. They seem to have overlooked the voters born this century. Further disenfranchisement of younger people?
Deborah Kelly | 04.05.23 - 8:34 a.m. | #
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I have worked in polling stations and even people who are motivated to vote often don't understand what exactly they need to do. Significant numbers of people bring along their polling cards and others just automatically bring out their ID. During the Brexit referendum I had to turn away numerous Europeans who didn't know they weren't allow to vote in that particular referendum. Having said that though I believe this is a cynical move by the Govt. to disenfranchise people.
ganching | Homepage | 04.05.23 - 8:42 a.m. | #
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Come on DG, get off the fence!
Stuart R | 04.05.23 - 8:46 a.m. | #
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If you don't drink alcohol, travel abroad, or drive, you are unlikely to need to show photo ID. It's somewhat academic for me as I have an in date passport and there are no elections where I live, but I can't remember the last time I used photo ID.
Richard | 04.05.23 - 8:49 a.m. | #
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From that table that’s 119 allegations of personation in elections over a four year period (or at least 119 over seven years). But it is still a relatively minor problem.
Requiring some form of identification to vote is not a stupid idea, and many other countries do it. But we know any kind of requirement can increase the barrier to voting, so needs to be proportionate and practical and as nondiscriminatory as possible. The way this has been implemented will plainly favour a party that attract more votes from older, wealthy, and/or white voters over any parties that attract more votes from other demographic groups.
And we already know that “first past the post” favours some parties over others.
Andrew | 04.05.23 - 9:03 a.m. | #
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An excellent analysis. As you identify, the weak point is postal votes....so put bolts on the window whilst leaving the door open...
Reminded of all the parliamentary time spend discussing a national ID cards 15-20 years back. No fan then or now but the supporting arguments where stronger than electoral fraud.
Rod | 04.05.23 - 9:10 a.m. | #
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I have both a drivers license & passport but I rarely carry them. (In fact, I think the last few times I've needed them was when I was renewing my DBS certificate)
The whole voter fraud thing is a smokescreen: There is so much more the government could be doing to improve the lives of people in the UK. (And I don't include persecuting people who are trying to escape hardship)
But as none of us went to an expensive private school, we're not important and will be ignored.
Jon Jones | 04.05.23 - 9:21 a.m. | #
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It's blatant Tory election engineering, pure and simple.
Johnny Topaz | 04.05.23 - 9:23 a.m. | #
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I'm with A Non.
And the sooner we get a compulsory ID card the better.
Joho | Homepage | 04.05.23 - 9:40 a.m. | #
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A sledgehammer to crack a nut.
Richard | 04.05.23 - 9:43 a.m. | #
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Something I've not seen discussed at all, is that many 50-69 year olds are accustomed to think that their driving license is valid until their 70th birthday (as it used to be). Of course, the photo driving license is only valid for 10 years after issue. I'm wondering if people with an out-of-date license will be consistently turned away, will erratically be turned away, or whether such ID will be accepted despite being technically invalid. Presumably an expired passport would not be accepted...
dg writes: You’ve not seen it discussed because they will be accepted.
cau1khead | 04.05.23 - 9:46 a.m. | #
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I think there is a a longer term hidden agenda as well--forcing citizens to have some sort of identity card, capable of being produced when demanded (at least in the way that driving documents have to be produced within 7 days)
The next step would be to make voting mandatory.
MilesT | 04.05.23 - 9:51 a.m. | #
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It's interesting to see that the majority of electoral fraud allegations in 2022 concerned campaigning (64%) rather than voting (20%).
Neil | 04.05.23 - 9:53 a.m. | #
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I came across someone recently who hadn't applied for her 60+ Oyster as she had no real ID as she leaves all the bills and driving to her husband. I suspect cases like hers are still surprisingly common, although she probably has a birth certificate somewhere to start things off.
Andrew S | 04.05.23 - 10:03 a.m. | #
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Hopefully local political parties will engage local electorates to get ID (or postal votes) in time for next general election, at least in likely swing seats, to mitigate the democratic deficit of these changes.
Distributing the necessary paperwork during early canvassing would be a start.
Due to boundary changes I have moved from a safe Labour seat to a likely swing seat, but I'm all set with permanent postal vote which I have had for some years.
MilesT | 04.05.23 - 10:18 a.m. | #
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"Identity card bearing the Proof of Age Standards Scheme hologram (a PASS card)" is also accepted, so that will cover many younger voters as well. Bad that more young people's cards aren't accepted though.
Mikey C | 04.05.23 - 10:32 a.m. | #
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Not got a problem with showing ID. It's the norm in many other countries.
Plenty of opportunities to get ID, including free ID. It's been publicisied for months, and frankly if you can't get organised, that's on you.
Absolutely no problem with this.
Jordan D | 04.05.23 - 10:38 a.m. | #
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If it stops just one dodgy vote being cast then it's a good thing.
MK Ian | 04.05.23 - 10:38 a.m. | #
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...and yet "just one dodgy vote" is exceptionally unlikely to change an election.
Whereas hundreds of thousands of disenfranchised voters might.
Victor | 04.05.23 - 10:44 a.m. | #
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MK Ian - the statistics say there will be much more of the bad thing than there will be of the good thing.
Timbo | 04.05.23 - 10:46 a.m. | #
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The problem is requiring ID *and* not having a national ID card. You need both for it to work. I think people are going to have to accept that in the 21st century a centralised ID scheme that can be used for anything is a useful thing.
Chz | 04.05.23 - 10:51 a.m. | #
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These stats on fraud ignore the fact that these are the reported incidents only. How many cases of fraud have there been that aren't reported? E.g. using the identify of people who will never turn up to vote, so never discover someone has voted in their name? Or else groups of people complicit in the scheme.
If people can't be bothered to exercise the democratic rights that others gave their lives for, then to be honest one fails to see why the system should be design to coddle the lowest common denominator.
For the commenter above, the 60+ Oyster requires proof of ID (e.g. passport) that the 18+ does not, so they aren't "nearly equivalent". Only secondary IDs that require proof of primary ID are valid.
WALOB | 04.05.23 - 10:54 a.m. | #
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I voted this morning and offered my Disabled Adult Railcard as ID. This was turned down but told that a Disabled Adult Buss Pass is acceptable. Nobody could explain why.
This requirement is a ludicrous and pathetic waste of time. The people working at the Polling Station told me that they has been told to be very strict and were very apologetic.
My only consolation was that it gave me yet another motivation to not vote for the party that introduced it.
Mel | 04.05.23 - 11:07 a.m. | #
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"and you are who you say you are."
A Non @08:10
- now there's irony
Paul B | 04.05.23 - 11:13 a.m. | #
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WALOB - "one fails to see why the system should be design to coddle the lowest common denominator"
Because we want as many people to exercise their vote as possible. Turnout is already worryingly low.
Richard | 04.05.23 - 11:26 a.m. | #
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In principle I can see the logic. It's an important thing is voting, and in principle you should be able to prove who you are to do that.
But cold hard facts say the downsides to this are huge and far outweigh the benefits. People not being able to vote due to lack of ID is a far bigger problem than electoral fraud. And yes there is the free ID you could apply for. But to get that you have to supply various forms of identification - some which you may have, some which you may not.
This isn't even a sledgehammer to crack a nut in my mind. It's sledgehammer to shell a pea.
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 04.05.23 - 11:41 a.m. | #
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What Jordan D said.
Roll on an ID card. Funny how all the otherwise enthusiastic pro-Europeans run a mile from this very European piece of kit.
David B | 04.05.23 - 11:57 a.m. | #
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The Tory-led government scrapped identity cards in 2011 so won't be planning on introducing them again any time soon.
rolf | 04.05.23 - 12:08 p.m. | #
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The bizarre thing as you say is that postal voting seems to have a much greater incidence of fraud, but this is not being addressed, I wonder why.
I agree with a National ID scheme.
Benjamin Waterhouse | 04.05.23 - 12:33 p.m. | #
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According the the Electoral Commission's own data on electoral fraud, in 2022 there were just three allegations of personation fraud in postal voting, two of which resulted in no further action being taken.
It's not an issue, it just sounds like it ought to be.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 04.05.23 - 12:40 p.m. | #
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It is - blatantly, obviously, honkingly - not a good faith effort to tackle a genuine problem, since no evidence of such a problem exists. And if the problem did exist, it would be a curious way to tackle it. But as a way of filtering out younger and less privileged citizens, it promises to work quite well. Victim-blaming the disenfranchised seems to be the cherry on top, for some enthusiasts.
jpmac | 04.05.23 - 1:59 p.m. | #
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I'm struggling to understand how 'young' voters, who often have to prove their age in the bars and clubs they frequent, or to buy alcohol in supermarkets, don't have appropriate ID?
Also, if people are unaware that they now need photo ID to vote, doesn't it show that they are pretty unaware of current issues, so unlikely to be in a positon to cast informed votes? I live in the middle of nowhere, rarely go out, don't 'do' social media and no longer watch national TV news, and *I* know!
Just playing devil's advocate here...
Blue Witch | 04.05.23 - 3:01 p.m. | #
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I am admittedly no longer a young person (mid 40s) but at no point in my life have I ever been asked to show ID to prove age in the UK at a pub/bar/club. Nor in a shop. Not even when I was 17 and stood ordering a pint. So I do wonder how many people in their 20s do regularly get aged checked in bars or shops, and so how many of them actually carry ID.
Indeed an increasing number of under 30s do not drink!
(I did once get warned in a hotel that there were some "inspectors" who may enter the hotel bar and check for age of all the customers so I should have ID. This was in Canada. No one did. And I was 35 at the time.)
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 04.05.23 - 3:23 p.m. | #
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Mel - your bus pass and others are issued by local government. Railcards and the like are not. Whether this means local government does extra checks, I don't know, but the issuer is a "formal" part of the (electoral) system, rather than ouside it, a category which would also apply to university-issued ID and the like.
Paul | 04.05.23 - 3:37 p.m. | #
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Sadly so much of the Conservatives playbook is being taken from US Republican values. Voter suppression is par for the cause there, as is a political civil service.
Jon | 04.05.23 - 5:25 p.m. | #
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Electoral ID is not new to one part of the UK, and certainly very common across the EU.
Might it be those whipping up a moral panic about voter 'suppression' that will do more to undermine confidence in our democratic processes?
WALOB | 04.05.23 - 6:20 p.m. | #
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Andrew, many young people these days carry PASS Proof of Age id cards to prove their age. If you watch "yoof" at the bar or buying alcohol in shops, you will regularly see them show their id.
I imagine it's standard "right of passage" thing to apply for one, as you can also use it to go and see an 18 movie or exhibition. There are also cards for 16 year olds.
Such cards ARE valid voter id.
Mikey C | 04.05.23 - 6:36 p.m. | #
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rolf - what were these ID cards that were scrapped in 2011 please? I've never heard of them before (except when vaguely mentioned by people I took to be ignorant!).
Ian | 04.05.23 - 7:03 p.m. | #
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Blue Witch, I think you'll find that a not-insignificant number of people cast uninformed votes!
miker | 04.05.23 - 7:35 p.m. | #
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Mikey, as a youth, I can tell you confidently that a large number of 'yoof' don't drink. A 2018 study found that 30% of under 25s don't drink, and growing. In addition certain religions are prohibited from drinking, such as Islam and Jainism.
Just because you see some young people drinking does not mean that all young people drink. Not everyone has a Proof of Age and perhaps this problem could be solved by adding IDs that many young people have, such as Student IDs or Library Cards.
TW | 04.05.23 - 7:43 p.m. | #
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As a politics academic I couldn't have put it any better. The clincher for me that this is being done in bad faith is that electoral fraud can be and has been committed on a far larger scale via postal voting, but this is not being touched - indeed, it has become easier in recent years. Leaving aside egregious examples like Tower Hamlets, when I was active in local politics it was always strongly suspected that care home owners cast the postal votes of their residents, for example. It would be much harder to cast so many fraudulent votes in person.
Sarah | 04.05.23 - 7:46 p.m. | #
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Ian~ I found the link in rolf’s comment helpful
David | 04.05.23 - 7:49 p.m. | #
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Regarding younger people and “proof of age” cards: many younger people like having this sort of proof on their smart phone rather than having to carry around a plastic card. For example, the Post Office provides digital proof-of-age ID cards which work perfectly for this purpose.
The Post Office EasyID is approved as verified photo ID for buying age-restricted products, and is accepted in lots of places including (obviously) Post Offices as some banks as proof of ID… but it’s not good enough for voting.
sjhoward | Homepage | 04.05.23 - 10:04 p.m. | #
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My 28 y/o doesn't have a driver's licence and his passport expired in 2020.
I found what worked in getting my young adults to engage was to have them apply for a postal vote so they could put their X in the box at whatever unsociable hour they choose!
Cornish Cockney | 04.05.23 - 11:30 p.m. | #
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Whilst I agree with the comment suggesting that electoral fraud may be under-reported, I am against imposing such onerous ID requirements. Personally, I applied for a Voter Authority Certificate as a protest against the new requirements, despite having a valid photocard driving licence (my passport expired some time ago, and I have not bothered renewing, since I have no plans to go abroad)... but also just in case the DVLA revoked my licence after 5pm on 25th April. If the government is going to impose such nonsense, I will make it a bit more expensive for them. I suggest EVERYBODY who is against this imposition apply for a Voter Authority Certificate to "clog up the system", regardless of any other acceptable photo ID they possess, and regardless of whether they plan to vote.
In the end, I did not vote today, because I was busy, and could not be bothered, since all three of the candidates on offer in my district were, as far as I was concerned, equally bad (had I gone to vote, I would have done the same as last year, and spoiled the ballot).
anon | 05.05.23 - 12:27 a.m. | #
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It's a very small sample I know, but friends who were polling clerks in Worcester didn't need to turn anyone away. Other friends in Bournemouth turned away one "who had forgotten her purse". She later returned with her bus pass.
Alpine | 05.05.23 - 6:53 a.m. | #
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Back home we need electoral registration AND photo ID to vote, and voting is compulsory, if you don’t or can’t you need to fill out a form and/or pay a fine that’s really small but can only be paid in person in one specific bank. I’m still amazed that in the UK you don’t even need to walk around with an ID much less need it to vote (until now). I remember going into A&E with my babies and spending half an hour giving out all sorts of information and ID just to prove who we all were before being seen.
Renata | 05.05.23 - 7:33 a.m. | #
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No consultation. No referendum. Sounds like Labour’s expanded ULeZ. So they’re all at it!
Kim | 05.05.23 - 12:05 p.m. | #
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I voted yesterday and while i was there an NHS worker who only had their NHS Photo ID on them was being turned away following a phone call to HQ.
Nb: driving license ownership - valid form for younger people are lower in cities esp London - Many of these cities didn't vote yesterday
Jon | 05.05.23 - 12:10 p.m. | #
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Well said. I took a lot of pride in our democratic system working in a way that involved a certain amount of trust and yet was overwhelmingly not abused - just like so many other aspects of civic life.
In the last 15 years, my trip to the polling station involved being greeted by a friend on the registration table. The thought that she's going to have to insist I show my ID next time is a bit laughable, if not very sad.
NickW | 05.05.23 - 7:39 p.m. | #
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Didn't seem to help the Tories much today, did it? Clowns.
MK | 05.05.23 - 8:33 p.m. | #
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...but it still helped some of them.
There are surviving Tory councillors out there who owe their seat to voter ID.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 05.05.23 - 8:39 p.m. | #
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The question is, will the next Labour government abolish the ID requirement?
LS | 05.05.23 - 9:58 p.m. | #
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