dg comments

please empty your brain below

n.b. For the purposes of all Tube Week quizzes, there are eleven tube lines. The DLR is not a tube line. The Overground is not a tube line.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 08.11.11 - 7:02 p.m. | #

As a result of the service pattern any journey from Kensington Olympia to anywhere that is not on the District Line, Circle Line (if you change at HSK and go anti clockwise) or Piccadilly Line.

snoggle | 08.11.11 - 7:11 p.m. | #

Well, using journey planner (brilliant for this this sort of thing) @19:30 I went on a hunch and found that the journey I thought would need four did in fact need four.

However it still showed an option starting at 19:27 that meant it could be done in three as there was a rare though train (six in total in the evening peak period).

So could you be a bit more specific with the rules please ?

Pedantic of Purley | 08.11.11 - 7:42 p.m. | #

If you take the tube from just a few years ago, there were several more: the East London line offered a number of journeys requiring several changes. But since the Overground came along, they have pretty much dried up. Ditto turning Chesham into a through service

Rich | 08.11.11 - 7:42 p.m. | #

Ooh, the Waterloo & City line and Victoria/Piccadilly/Met/H&C need 3 trains (and I'm generously counting Bank and Monument as one station on account of its interchange-y conjoined circles, otherwise there would be more lines that the W&C it's not well connected to.

I do love a good Tube Week. Ta DG!

Jim | 08.11.11 - 8:32 p.m. | #

Ah, but Jim, there are only two stations on the W&C line. You can get to every station on the Victoria/Piccadilly/Met/H&C lines in two trains from either Waterloo or Bank.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 08.11.11 - 8:37 p.m. | #

Ah, I didn't read your very careful phrasing properly. Back to the tube map for me...

Jim | 08.11.11 - 8:41 p.m. | #

Kensington Olympia to Borough was 4 when they were doing the first phase of escalator works at Bank.

Henry | 08.11.11 - 9:17 p.m. | #

Oh, hang on, forgot about the Piccadilly Line and KX...

Henry | 08.11.11 - 9:20 p.m. | #

By my reckoning the only current 3-change journey is Mill Hill East to Kensington (Olympia) - except for when through trains run to MHE as Pedantic says.

When Chesham had only a shuttle service (except for two trains in each peak) it would have been in the same situation - 4 changes to both Ken Olympia and MHE.

ex Balfron resident | 08.11.11 - 9:35 p.m. | #

A slightly silly one, Park Royal to Hanger Lane can be done with one change at Holborn, but the quickest route is Park Royal - Ealing Common - Ealing Broadway - North Acton - Hanger Lane.

Or you could just walk :-)

greatkingrat | 08.11.11 - 9:42 p.m. | #

OK

DLR does not connect to Bakerloo line.
Circle does connect to Overground
Overground does not connect to Picadilly Line.
Metropolitan Line does not connect to DLR
Picadilly Line does not connect to DLR
Victoria Line does not connect to DLR

So, DLR to any station on Bakerloo, Metropolitan, Picadilly or Victoria always requires two changes.

dg writes: Sorry, no. Please see first comment above.

Brian Butterworth | Homepage | 08.11.11 - 9:59 p.m. | #

While the Northern Line doesn't stop at TCR, Goodge Street to TCR requires 3 trains, as does Marble Arch to Mornington Crescent.

Joachim | 08.11.11 - 10:00 p.m. | #

Anything with 3+ trains needs to start or finish somewhere without a direct connection to the Jubilee line, otherwise it's always 2 changes (as DG knows, the Jubilee connects every line).

So that only really leaves Olympia, the Mill Hill East shuttle, and the Woodford-Hainault shuttle, and only any of those at times when the service pattern makes them self-contained (they all have direct trains at least once a day). But outside the peaks you'd need four trains between Olympia/Mill Hill East/Roding Valley, Chigwell, Grange Hill.

Dave A | 08.11.11 - 10:06 p.m. | #

It's all down to the "hidden" lines, which are basically:

Northern Line - "city" and "west end" branches. You have to change at Camden or Kennington to change branch if you are already on it.

The same goes for the District Lines though Earl's Court, there is the Ealing Broadway/Richmond to Upminster Line, and the Wimbledon to Edgware Road line. You have to change at Earl's Court to stay on the same line.

There's the "unidirectional" links at Finchley Central, Leytonstone, Woodford, Turnham Green, Hatton Cross, North Acton, Harrow On The Hill, Moor Park, and Chalfont & Latimer.

So, three changes = four trains for PARK ROYAL to PERIVALE (Ealing Common, Ealing Broadway, North Acton).

Brian Butterworth | Homepage | 08.11.11 - 10:37 p.m. | #

Except Park Royal to Perivale can be done on only two trains (change at Holborn). Inefficient, but possible.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 08.11.11 - 10:54 p.m. | #

I know the DLR's not allowed, but my journey to work every day (Pudding Mill Lane to Leicester Square) requires three trains. On the plus side, at least I get some excerise at the interchanges.

Michael | 08.11.11 - 11:08 p.m. | #

@Brian butterworth
Park Royal to perivale is possible with one change, at Holborn

The lack of an interchange between the west end branch of the Northern and the Met means two changes are required from Mornington Crescent or Goodge Street to any station served exclusively by the Met (i.e. Northwick Park to West Harrow/Chesham/Amersham/watford inclusive). Although there is no direct interchange with the H&C, you can reach any H&C destination from Morninton Cres or Goodge Street by changing at Embankment to the Circle (for destinations west of Liverpool Street) or District (for destinations east of Aldgate East).
All other west end branch stations are served by other lines as well, so a single chnage is the maximum needed from any of these.

The "unidirectional" links you refer to do not result any other situations where more than one chnage is necessary - the only interchanges beyond such a branch point are on the Central and District at Ealing Broadway, and on the Met and Picc at Rayners Lane. In each case the two lines also meet elsewhere, so it is possible for instance to make a journey from the west Ruislip branch of the Central to the Richmond branch of the District with a single change, at Mile End. Similarly Chesham to Heathrow is possible via Kings Cross.

As for the lack of through services between Ealing/Richmond and Edgware Road, the main District connects with all other lines except the Met, so a single chnage suffices for any destination except those exclusively served by the Met. The Edgware Road branch stations are all served by the Circle, which connects with all other lines, so again a single change suffices.

Timbo | 08.11.11 - 11:19 p.m. | #

As I said, you can verify your answer using Journey Planner. Don't forget to ensure only "tube" is selected and "Route with the fewest changes" is also selected. It confirms, as DG said, that Park Royal to Perivale can be done in one change.

Pedantic of Purley | 08.11.11 - 11:24 p.m. | #

So the simple answer to DG's question is

1. Yes - Mornington Cres or Goodge Street to any station exclusively served by the Met

2. No journey requires four trains

(I am ignoring any temporary suspensions, such as TCR, and assuming that you are prepared to wait for a through service e.g. on the Mill Hill branch)

Timbo | 08.11.11 - 11:25 p.m. | #

..... "MORNINGTON CRESCENT!!!"

Gordon | 08.11.11 - 11:53 p.m. | #

Of course the challenge was about changing trains not lines. And the northern line only has one set of trains. So:

1. get on any train at Goodge Street or Mornington Crescent (but avoid Kennington trains, because they make step 2 take longer)

2. stay on it until, at some indeterminate future point, having seen Edgware, High Barnet or Modern one or more times, you reach Moorgate

3. take metropolitan line to wherever you fancy.

marek | 09.11.11 - 12:02 a.m. | #

Broadening this outside London (oooh! Sacrilege!) I have been told that it is possible to reach any station on the national rail (the state-owned) network with only one change from London - except for stations beyond Nunthorpe on te Whitby branch. Is this true? Does anyone care?

David | 09.11.11 - 6:33 a.m. | #

I can think of a few other counterexamples to the National Rail theorem. Cardiff Bay (change at Cardiff Central and Cardiff Queen Street); stations between Ulceby and Barton on Humber inclusive (change at Habrough or Grimsby Town, both of which are 1 change from London)

Forest Pines | Homepage | 09.11.11 - 7:12 a.m. | #

What about stations on the Hunts Cross to Southport/Ormskirk line on Merseyside? You would have to change at both Liverpool Lime Street and Central.

The Wrexham-Bidston line

Springburn and Stepps

Stations between Manchester Vic and Rochdale

And of course, the Isle of Wight Line

Timbo | 09.11.11 - 11:32 a.m. | #

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