please empty your brain below
Painted roundels on the road are only advisory, so if there are 20s next to 30s, speeding drivers can't use them as an excuse. I'm baffled by the 20 sign at the end of the 20 zone though.

Incidentally, speed limits don't apply to cyclists, though they can be charged for pedalling 'furiously'.

martin | 02.03.23 - 7:20 a.m. | #

It may be that the baffling 20 sign is still a legal requirement because you are going from a 20mph zone into a 20mph limit. There is a difference between the two. I will check later.

MO | 02.03.23 - 7:34 a.m. | #

The speed limit was lowered on Centre Road between Wanstead and Forest Gate months ago when the cycle lanes were added, but Google Maps still shows the old speed limit when in driving mode.

I expect this will be the case in Bow for a while too.

Charlie | 02.03.23 - 7:52 a.m. | #

Yes MO, a 20 zone and a 20 limit are legally different. A regular 20 limit requires regular repeater signs, whereas a zone doesn’t as it should incorporate other elements such as speed bumps, filters, etc.

The underlying premise is that a driver should be able to tell from the road type the appropriate speed, if the legal speed is different then repeater signs are required.

Felix | 02.03.23 - 8:05 a.m. | #

When replacing a 30 roundel with a 20 roundel, why not just remove the 3 and replace it with a 2? Less work, and less paint too.

Alan S | 02.03.23 - 8:38 a.m. | #

Felix - Thanks. Knew the difference between the two and the logic, but it was a case of can you get rid of the zone start and end signs. The legal signing requirements are different for zones (rectangular zone signs with roundel within) than for limits (normal round regulatory sign). So you need the baffling sign because if you made the zone now part of the 20 limit you would need repeaters throughout the zone. So, the baffling sign renders it all legally compliant without needing those repeaters. Thus the signing you need is less than you would have, but looks more than it should be.

MO

MO | 02.03.23 - 8:39 a.m. | #

Martin - you have to pedal quite furiously to maintain 20mph on a bike for any length of time, and a bike and its rider weigh considerably less than a car and its driver so present a far lower risk.

It seems a bit pointless to me to paint on a new speed limit without either doing more enforcement or changing the street design (eg narrower lanes) to make people drive slower. Otherwise people will just drive at the speed they feel comfortable at.

Ed | 02.03.23 - 8:54 a.m. | #

"This is not the work of geniuses" an honest summary. Could have a man walking in front with a red flag to reduce accidents.

scrumpy | 02.03.23 - 8:56 a.m. | #

Alas there aren’t many contractors that are genii.

Does it look like there is going to be any enforcement? Maybe less relevant to Bow Road but looking at other locations I imagine there will be a lot of speeding on Seven Sisters Road in Finsbury Park.

David | 02.03.23 - 9:00 a.m. | #

Ed: it’s a bit chicken and egg with design and speeds. If the speed limit is 30 the roads needs to be designed a certain way which reinforces the speed, if you lower the speed then you can have narrower roads and tighter junctions/curves which over time means you can manage speeds. It would not be cost effective to go make all those physical changes now but 20 gives designers for different ways to design the highway.

David | 02.03.23 - 9:03 a.m. | #

To better understand the reasoning behind this, I'd like to know the percentage of "deaths caused by speed" that were at a speed of BETWEEN 20 and 30mph. I suspect the figure of 37% of deaths "related to speed" will include a good proportion of cases where the speed was well in excess of 30mph. In other words, the driver didn't observe or care about the limit anyway. So, such a driver is unlikely to be constrained by a 20mph limit. So - will the objective be realised?

Chris L | 02.03.23 - 9:12 a.m. | #

There are vast areas of 20mph across London which aren't adhered to, not least by buses, never mind vans.

My one issue with blanket 20mph limits, is that it doesn't highlight the roads where you REALLY need a 20 limit - narrow residential streets, roads going past schools and parks etc - as opposed to those major roads, wide and relatively free of pedestrian interaction, where the 20 is more of a political decision. Especially at nighttime.

Mikey C | 02.03.23 - 9:30 a.m. | #

I wonder if the 'non overlapping' on road markings is intentional - with a view to the old 20s being cleaned off at a later date? As adding markings is very quick, and TfL do sometimes remove old markings but it is a slower and more laborious process that would not be an overnight job. The poor placements of some new '20's, on the other hand, can only really speak to contractors in a hurry.

David | Homepage | 02.03.23 - 9:53 a.m. | #

They can't reduce to 19 or 18 or even 10 as speedometers aren't required to measure a speed below 20mph. To be enforceable a speed limit has to be a multiple of 10. You might see other numbers on private roads, but that's down to the landowner.

When I lived in London, a road near me changed from 60 to 30 overnight. But no one paid much attention

Ian | 02.03.23 - 9:57 a.m. | #

Slightly surprised that no one has come out strongly against 20 MPH speed limits in the comments (yet). I wonder if that's a reflection of general trends in opinion, in inner London at least.

Busses are meant to have speed limiters in these situations, at least that's what a bus driver told me when he appeared in court for speeding. We never got a conclusive answer on that.

Lux | 02.03.23 - 9:59 a.m. | #

Incidentally, speed limits don't apply to cyclists, though they can be charged for pedalling 'furiously'.
Well you learn something new every day.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 02.03.23 - 9:59 a.m. | #

The (rather pathetic) policy on enforcement generally is that these are 'self-enforcing' which I think means that so long as a few drivers observe it then others will be force to observe it as well.

My real bugbear is that TfL-controlled buses tend not to observe it. That is the case around here on a local route. If the buses had speed limiters that have been promised for ages then that would go a long way to making the restrictions effective.

It is the same with council vehicles - or at least vehicles run under a council contract with the council's logo emblazed on it. The often exceed the limit even though it is usually the case that the council themselves introduced it.

Pedantic of Purley | 02.03.23 - 10:08 a.m. | #

Speed limits don't apply to cyclists because although they are 'driving' a vehicle they are not driving a motor vehicle and the relevant regulations are in one of the acts applying to motor vehicles.

In the same way, it is not a specific offence for cyclists to be on a mobile phone though he may fall foul of other offences (e.g. without due care and attention or not being in control of the vehicle).

Pedantic of Purley | 02.03.23 - 10:13 a.m. | #

I can imagine the TfL meeting to discuss how they'll go about changing the 30 signs to 20.

They'd be an hour or so of Powerpoint presentations to management to show where to place the new roundels on the road. They'll recommend (with artist's impressions) painting them next to the old ones e.g. Addington Road, Kitcat Terrace etc.

Then someone with the intelligence and common sense of Alan S will hesitantly raise a hand and make his suggestion.

Cue much throat clearing, stunned silence and looking down at laps before a "Yeeeees, well...where was I..." and the long-winded presentation continues.

Wild Edric | 02.03.23 - 10:35 a.m. | #

Newer TfL buses have GPS linked speed limiters. There'll be a sticker on the back indicating it.

The traffic order for Holloway Road / Seven Sisters Road came into force on February 20th but the signs haven't been changed yet. The roundel crew could strike at any time.

Graham | 02.03.23 - 10:36 a.m. | #

It came to Lambeth 3 years ago with the slogan '20's plenty in 2020'. The limit is not universally observed, notably by bikers on Leigham Court Road still enjoying its curves and undulations.

Ian Paton | 02.03.23 - 10:48 a.m. | #

We've had a 20mph limit/zone in my part of Southwark for a few years now and while I absolutely agree with the argument for slower speeds in urban areas in general, does it really have to be applied on a 24 hour basis? Crawling at 20mph on the N381 along deserted roads at 04:30 is very tedious.

Richard | 02.03.23 - 11:13 a.m. | #

This is not enough. Cars should not exceed the pace of a horse and should be preceeded individuallyu by a person holding a lantern and a red fanion.
Pedestrians should be allowed to jaywalk freely with all accountability for crash on the driver of the car.
Drivers of cars should wear caps.

international reader | 02.03.23 - 12:14 p.m. | #

I'm not a big fan of 20mph being implemented on main thoroughfares.

Back in my mid-sized city in France, the entire city went to 30kph which was all and well and perfectly sensible, but they kept the main thoroughfares (a handful arterials plus a radial) at 50kph.

The point is, rather than having to filter traffic everywhere (which is being done but takes time), you give a pretty good incentive to drivers to not cut straight through neighborhoods.

Bow Road may be 20mph now, but it's still a pretty hostile environment for pedestrians and will continue to be so. I view it through the sort of Dutch planning perspective that some roads will be first and foremost destined to pedestrians, some for bicycles, some for public transport and some for other motor vehicles. Unless there's a wider rethink of the road network, Bow Road falls squarely in the last category.

The main crux of the issue in my opinion is the abandonment of the ringway plan (though very thankfully it was abandoned). In the absence of a proper heavy traffic road network, roads like Bow Road (and much narrower ones) have to substitute for them, leading to much nuisance and danger for those living and travelling around them.

Will 20 mph fix the issue? No. Only a real change in transport and logistics patterns will.

Matthieu | 02.03.23 - 12:41 p.m. | #

Richard - I half understand your point of view, and know I'm very unpopular when I stick to 20MPH along the embankment at 3.30 am. But as far as I know, the difference in being hit at 20mph or 30 mph is the same at 4am as 4pm.

Lux | 02.03.23 - 12:49 p.m. | #

I agree with Matthieu, 20mph on main roads doesn’t make any sense.

Lux, the difference is at 4am is there are fewer vehicles on the road therefore it should be easier for pedestrians to take care of themselves.

Jon | 02.03.23 - 1:04 p.m. | #

As a resident of Bow Road, which is the main road I most frequently cross, I'm quite happy with a 20mph limit.

At most times of day it's not disempowering many drivers because they weren't reaching 30mph anyway.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 02.03.23 - 1:08 p.m. | #

But my car...

mclm | 02.03.23 - 1:10 p.m. | #

Chingford is now covered with the 20mph limit signs on most of the roads, plus massive humps as well on many = makes bus journeys very bouncy for the older passengers.

I can see two of the 20 signs on my road just a few yards up the hill from here, and another two up the top of the hill.
G

g.chingford | 02.03.23 - 2:29 p.m. | #

I can confirm there is some enforcement as a friend of mine was done for doing 22mph near Finsbury Park. He was offered a speed awareness course.

JohnC | 02.03.23 - 3:08 p.m. | #

At the very least, public transport vehicles should be exempt from the 20mph rule. But that would involve constructing proper bi-directional bus corridors.

Jon, if anything the 20mph limit has greater benefits to pedestrians in the middle of the night when there's a higher chance of them actually reaching a high speed.

Matthieu | 02.03.23 - 3:16 p.m. | #

It looks like other commenters have explained the difference quite well, but here's an useful article on the differences between 20mph Zones and 20mph Limits.

The rationale actually seems quite sensible!

J | 02.03.23 - 4:27 p.m. | #

Where I now live - Cambridge - cyclists frequently pass me on either side when I attempt to keep to 20mph. We also have to contend with scooters, legal and otherwise, and the latest invaders are robots from the Co-op, although they are quite timid when crossing the road.

Peter | 02.03.23 - 5:51 p.m. | #

One recent development seems to be that more cars having gearing allowing 20mph to be a practical speed. When the 20mph limit was first introduced in Richmond Park, I found I was constantly having to shift gears - the engine would race in 2nd, but stutter in 3rd on the slightest gradient. And the speed limiter wouldn't set any speed below about 25.
My present car will trundle along at 20 quite happily, (getting overtaken by all the cyclists), and the speed limiter will take 20 too.
Electric cars are gearless so it should be less of a problem in the future.

timbo | 02.03.23 - 5:58 p.m. | #

After 40 years of driving, cycling and motorbiking around London, my tired old eyes and fading reflexes crave only one aid - predictability. A constantly shifting minefield of contravention opportunities is exhausting to navigate. 20 everywhere is one less thing.

Btw, TfL’s speed limit map [pdf] seems not to have been updated yet. But it would make a nice poster print.

jpmac | 02.03.23 - 5:58 p.m. | #

Whilst TfL are busy switching from 30mph to 20mph, my borough (Merton) has been going the other way, recently *increasing* the speed limit of a road from 20mph back to 30mph.

I would agree with others in that a blanket 20mph is easier to understand than roads randomly changing speed limit as you cross from one zone into the next.

Rob | 02.03.23 - 10:17 p.m. | #

It is a completely idiotic measure to try enforcing 20mph speed limits on main road.

Misleading statistics about speed being 'a contributory factor' only add to the feeling this is a misguided ideological drive with no regard for practicality, enjoyment, or city life as a whole.

In fact, I’d say speed is the *main* factor in all motor traffic accidents - if everyone were always standing perfectly still, we'd achieve 'Vision 0' very quickly.

barbicanman | 03.03.23 - 12:16 a.m. | #

If you are driving across London at, let's say 30mph, then assuming you're at the same speed the whole way (which you won't be), a 5 mile journey is going to take 10 minutes. At 20 miles an hour, the same 5 mile journey is going to take 15 minutes.

So worst case, 20 mph has added 5 minutes to what is a reasonable drive within London.

In reality, because much of the drive was always going to be at less than 20mph (and probably less than 10 mph), the extra time will be maybe 2-3 minutes. So absolutely no hardship at all.

Will | 03.03.23 - 10:12 a.m. | #

So TfL can produce ‘speed limit maps’ but not bus maps? Says it all. Vision Zero = Zero Vision.

Kim | 03.03.23 - 11:50 a.m. | #

Speaking as someone who drives occasionally in London, I think 20mph limits in inner London have some benefits, since they give the driver more time to read and react to the numerous signs, lane markings (often very faint), and hazards. It is very easy to miss your turning (especially if the road sign has not been well maintained), so the extra time to react is quite helpful. However, one big disadvantage is that it forces the driver to spend more time looking at the speedometer and less time actually observing his/her surroundings and checking mirrors (very important to check mirrors constantly, especially when there are lots of pedestrians and cyclists about, with some of the cyclists capable of reaching 20mph). Since much of my driving is on motorways or in the countryside, I do not have a natural feel for 20mph.

As for the matter of signage, I think that lots of repeatelittle r signs are absolutely essential. It is really awkward driving along a wide A-road or B-road that looks like it could be 30mph, but one cannot remember whether there was a 30mph sign to cancel a previous 20mph limit. Then, when lots of people overtake, one wonders whether they are breaking the limit or whether one is driving too slowly. The fact remains that UK motoring law has the default urban speed limit as 30mph, so the onus is on the relevant authority to signpost a variation from that limit prominently and repeatedly... otherwise, one wonders whether the authority is really motivated by safety, as opposed to the potential revenue from confused motorists. I can think of several areas in London (Lewisham is particularly bad in this regard, although Croydon has to win the prize for the absurdity of no repeater signs on the big 20mph suburban roads with excellent visibility, and loads of repeater signs on narrow residential roads full of parked cars) and elsewhere with a poorly signposted 20mph limit (e.g.: I can think of one town centre outside London with a "20mph zone", the entrance to which is marked by just one 20mph sign, situated counterintuitively on the right-hand side at a busy crossroads with traffic lights... easy for a driver who does not know the area to miss it).

anon anon anon | 09.03.23 - 9:38 p.m. | #











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