please empty your brain below
dg writes: I assumed I had 2 hours.
Turned out I didn't have 2 hours.
Also, I once had the situation where my overnight train (hourly service) from London was delayed by a points failure at East Croydon due to snow. The computer decided I hadn't completed my journey on the first day and then, to add insult to injury, also charged me the maximum fare because I touched out at around 5.00 a.m. and, as far as it was concerned, I hadn't touched in that day.
dg quotes: "You cannot get a refund."
Oh, and since you didn't explain what caused you to spend such an extensive amount of time on this journey, will the reason feature in a forthcoming post?
dg writes: Scroll down, Ken, scroll down.
So better to avoid touching out, and then lie...
In fact, you wouldn’t even have to lie. The report form for missed touches asks you where you touched, not when you touched.
Head slowly round the Overground (on a Z2 only fare to save money) and down to New Cross for a bit, drop in to the Amersham Arms or suchlike, touch back in at New Cross Gate within 25 minutes, head slowly home back round the Overground - stung for two maximum journey fares for taking too long and a penalty for touching in and out at the same station more than 30 minutes apart.
Yeah, it's excruciating...
Still don’t understand why I was charged a maximum fare! Ran out of money in central London and had to get my dad to pick me up!!
dg writes: No, they're identical.
I was on a Thameslink train heading south from Elephant and Castle to Bromley. Suddenly l notice a teenager talking on the phone giving advice. He was saying to someone who lived in Wembley who was short of money and wanted to do the same journey into south London to Bromley "all you have your do is pay for the tube. Just touch in Wembley and touch out at Elephant ' there are no barriers after that. Just get on the train and then make sure you get off at Shortland - DON'T get off account Bromley South." That way, be said, "you only pay for your tube journey". Interesting l thought, people making annually hundreds (or thousands?) of journeys have worked out a way to do half their trip across London without paying.
So for them, making just a short tube journey means they are completely unaffected by overall travel times like the ones described in the article.
I presume they have some mechanism that doesn't apply the maximum fare - or extends it - if there's engineering work or service issues.
Still a bit harsh, I think. But then under normal conditions, 99.99% of journeys shouldn't trigger it. The system's fairly robust and I find you can skip touching in and out at the rail termini and still get the correct fare so long as you get your start and end points correct.
All in all ‘too slow’.
I was whacked this penalty charge and stonewalled with ‘no refund!’ Fairly shameful...
Once again,I give hearty thanks for my freedom pass and its continued support by London councils. Signed a grateful old gal! 😉
Ps.why a gender based description at all? What's wrong with arsing about? I believe all genders have one? 😏
Except when, as a birthday treat, you (all right, me) could buy a red rover ticket, and travel around on buses all day.
I got charged the maximum two or three times, although when I called TfL and told them where I've actually been, they did give me a refund (you can choose to load the refund onto your Oyster or to credit it into your bank account).
This happened to my 17 year old daughter last year after she and her boyfriend spent too long saying their fond farewells on the platform, before he continued his journey home after college one afternoon!
I noticed when I next topped up her Oyster that she'd got an £8 charge so had questioned her about it.
Called up the hotline and explained what had happened. I guess the operator must have found it amusing as they refunded the charge without a problem!
Wembley and Shortlands are both in Zone 4, so not touching in and out for the second leg wouldn't actually save very much - only the "TOC premium" (and he would save even more - legally! - by going via Clapham Junction).
But the point of DG's article is that the Zone 4-Zone 4 journey made is allowed more time than the Zone 4-Zone 1 journey actually paid for. You could be over time at Elephant, and back within time at Bromley South. (although non stop services such as Victoria - Bromley South, London Bridge - East Croydon or Waterloo- Surbiton are better bets for pulling that trick)
So it would seem that there some discretion to issue refunds, despite the stark "no refund" statement, unless things have changed recently. If there is still some discretion I'm amazed (and appalled) that Anon (10.20) didn't get a refund in those circumstances.
When Oyster came in, I think many people were pleasantly surprised how helpful the helpline actually was. But perhaps financial pressures (or public acceptance of Oyster and contactless) have shifted TfL’s priority from its reputation to its wallet.
There should surely be some discretion that would allow Penalty Fare refunds for the occasional unexpectedly long journey but not be wide open to abuse. It doesn't make any sense to have passengers collapsing because they're forced to complete their journeys quickly, despite feeling unwell.
But above all, the 'No Refund' policy must surely be considered to be an Unfair Contract under the Consumer' Rights Act 2015? It bans 'fees and charges hidden in the small print' and 'disproportionate default charges', both of which seem highly relevant here.
I suspect it's done to discourage what would be otherwise very hard to avoid fare dodging - otherwise something like the following may ensue:
Imagine you start from a large station with barriers like West Croydon. You make a long journey via Shoreditch High Street (Zone 1) and changing at Highbury and Islington to Hadley Wood, which has no barriers, and do not touch out there. You spend a day pottering around Barnet doing whatever there is to do up there, then head back into Hadley Wood, without touching in, and back down to Croydon the same way you came up, but electing to touch out at Norwood Junction and walk the rest of the way to avoid being hit by touching in/out at the same location fares. You pay just £1.50 for two long trips across London.
At any point while on the railway, if challenged by revenue inspectors to provide a valid ticket, you simply offer up your validated Oyster, there's a green light and you continue. When you're off the railway, you remain unchallenged of course - and there's never anybody at Hadley Wood to notice you leaving the station without touching out/entering without touching in.
If I was DG, I would try calling the helpline to see if they could make a refund. £16 is an awful lot, when you could have bought a daily travelcard for much less.
And if I was Anon@10:20, I'd try calling again to see if I got a more sympathetic person on the line this time.
I've only ever fallen foul of this once and it was semi deliberate on my part. I loitered about in Zone 1 to see the Steam workings for tube 150. I thought I'd manage to trick the system but went over time. No point in challenging it as it was a "fair cop".
One issue is that there are more and more places within the barrier line that encourage you to linger - eg coffee shops with seats such as at Stratford (two Cafe Neros).
Just a short while ago i clocked a guy cheap black carrier bag in one hand, just knew from the look he was going to ride behind me on the barriers....so took a side step...he looked rather foolish.... but then went up the ar** of someone else. Then straight into the bookies....£1.50 is it really that much!!
DG phone up and complain, you'll get a refund
After I explained what I'd done, the surcharge was refunded, though was probably 3 years ago
Because they consider Brentwood as zone 11 (and Shenfield 12) for these purposes. The special fares apply (and Brentwood) bits are given dummy zones. The Oyster-Rail explains it.
1) Amersham 9
2) Chalfont 8
3) Chorleywood 7
4) Northwood 6
5) Pinner 5
6) Northwick Park 4
7) pass through zone 3
8) Finchley Road 2
9) Baker Street 1
10) Stratford 2
11) Maryland 3
12) Ilford 4
13) Chadwell Heath 5
14) Romford 6
15) pass through zone 7
16) pass through zone 8
17) pass through zone 9
18) pass through zone 10
19) Brentwood 11
20) Shenfield 12
You cannot get a refund.
When you use contactless or Oyster to pay as you go, there is a maximum amount of time that you can spend making a single journey on Tube, DLR, London Overground, TfL Rail and National Rail.
If you spend longer than the maximum journey time for your journey, you could be charged 2 maximum fares."
(my bolding of 'could' - suggests there is discretion)
Can't ring up now though... you've outed yourself :)
...and that line about no refunds is definitely living on borrowed time. No idea how that got there.
Opal is the contactless card for public transport in Greater Sydney. A quick search found a page on their website showing that the time limits are basically:
train 5 hours
light rail 3 hours
Circular Quay ferry 1 hour
other ferry 4 hours
bus 4 hours
Thanks for the inspiration, dg.
Generally, yes, but only if the station has entry barriers (not directionless readers as you won't be able to tell them you are entering)
Also see https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/same-station-continuation-exits/
Trouble is, as your question shows, people don't understand that they *can* and *should* challenge such moeny-grabbing practices. Hence why they persist.
But TfL isn't as simple as that. OSI times are different for different connections, ranging from 20 to 40 minutes (I think). So now if I want to make sure that I reset the clock, just walk to the next station.
"OSI" time limits range from 5 to 40 minutes: [link 2]
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/keep-within-maximum-journey-times
TridentScan | Privacy Policy