please empty your brain below
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Even I, with no interest in tube trains at all, am fascinated by this glimpse into the future.
Great Aunt Annie | 10.10.14 - 7:16 a.m. | #
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How on earth does the DLR manage to avoid passenger injuries, without drivers, glass wall, etc. Surely it must be a deathtap.
Andrew | 10.10.14 - 7:52 a.m. | #
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Can anybody explain why it is acceptable to build DLR stations with no platform edge protection, but the Piccadilly can't go driver-less without it? I suppose speeds and frequencies are higher on the latter, but I'm not sure this makes a vast amount of difference if you fall onto the track when the train's on its way.
Robert Johnson | Homepage | 10.10.14 - 8:00 a.m. | #
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One of the reasons why the tunnels are so small is that when the first tube lines were being built us human beings were a lot smaller than we are now, both in height and (especially) girth.
Even if there is no driver, there will still be a need for a LUL person to be on the train to close the doors and handle emergencies - as on the DLR. I would suggest that the DLR does not need Platform Edge Doors because the platforms are much wider and there is generally an open space to escape to if you do fall off the platform.
Finally, is this just a "Concept" for the train makers to aspire to, or is at Specification, to which they must adhere?
strawbrick | 10.10.14 - 8:34 a.m. | #
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Once was chatting to a TfL engineer who explained to me that the Bakerloo line is ffar more bendy (agreed) and has tighter curves than other deep level tube lines, and as such stock from other lines (eg. the Picc) could not run on the Bakerloo. Yet they are going to standardise the stock here?
Geofftech | Homepage | 10.10.14 - 9:02 a.m. | #
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It will be of great intrest to see platorm edge doors will be installed on the more curvatious stations such as Bank , Piccadily Circus and Paddington.
Luke | 10.10.14 - 9:11 a.m. | #
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There's two possible answers to the Bakerloo question. One is to build all the trains to fit the Bakerloo, then they will also manage the less-bendy lines. Or the other is that maybe they won't all be /quite/ the same, just pretty similar.
Probably nobody knows exactly, because the detailed designs have not been done, and won't be for quite a while.
Malcolm | 10.10.14 - 9:16 a.m. | #
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Lifts manage quite well without a person on board, as do roller-coasters. But obviously the trains will have drivers // if safety require it //. The whole driverless question has got caught up with pro- and anti-union politics; I suggest that most pronouncements on the subject (including mine) are better ignored.
Malcolm | 10.10.14 - 9:20 a.m. | #
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But will the doors close properly if someone leans against them?
Southern Heights | 10.10.14 - 9:38 a.m. | #
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Note that one problem with platform edge doors is that they obviously require the doors to be all in the same places on every train - and these new trains will be different from the old ones. So they can only start to install the doors once all the trains have been replaced.
Mark | 10.10.14 - 10:10 a.m. | #
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The thing that worries me more is those ridiculously small square windows. I thought they made the right design decision on the 1992 stock with the large windows, then reversed on the 95/96 stocks for no good reason. The 09 stock could be forgiven for it (since the average passenger won't use it above ground), but why doesn't the NTfL have large windows again, as the Piccadilly, Bakerloo and Central lines have quite a bit of above ground running.
And besides that, I assume people still trust Boris enough to bring any more New X for London, since everyone really loves the New Bus for London, especially for it's marvelous ability to cool the air inside it.
Someone | 10.10.14 - 10:16 a.m. | #
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The DLR was designed and built as a driverless system from day 1. That's a different challenge from converting a very old congested system.
Note that although DLR is nominally driverless, at very busy times the "captain" takes the front seat, opens the control panel, and sits ready to hit the "emergency stop" switch if needed. Not quite as driverless as it might appear....
IslandDweller | 10.10.14 - 10:24 a.m. | #
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@Mark
"So they can only start to install the doors once all the trains have been replaced. "
And only once the doors are there can they run without drivers, so we are told. Which is why they will have to have driving cabs.
It won't be the first time changes to crewing have happened during the service life of a train - you can still see where the guard's controls used to be fitted on the Bakerloo Line trains.
timbo | 10.10.14 - 10:40 a.m. | #
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The 95/95 Stock design regressed to smaller windows as there was a tentative plan to augment some of the 96s' with redundant cars from the 83 Stock and there was a need for some external symmetry in appearance.
Kim | 10.10.14 - 10:49 a.m. | #
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To respond to your comment:
First of all, this is the New Tube for London not New Tube for the Piccadilly Line (and we will put it on other lines later). The lines involved were surveyed in a very detailed manner. Therefore it will fit on the Bakerloo Line because it was designed from the outset to fit on the Bakerloo Line.
Secondly, the train is revolutionary as the carriages will be much shorter than usual. One revolutionary aspect not visible in the promotional video is that most carriages will only have one bogie (set of wheels). Again this has been designed to cope with the tight bends of the underground especially the Bakerloo Line.
Thirdly, all the above is probably not quite true. The train, as planned, probably wouldn't fit on any line currently. But the whole thing is designed as a package and in places it is more cost effective to do minor tunnel remedial work rather than build successive generations of trains to an even smaller gauge to take into account that tunnels shift, ever so slightly, over a long period of time.
Pedantic of Purley | 10.10.14 - 10:53 a.m. | #
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It is certainly possible to build a train that fits on all Tube lines: the "Standard" stock of the inter-war years operated on all Tube lines then in existence. So did the 1935/38 stock and the 1959/62 stock. The 1967/72 stocks worked all lines except the Piccadilly, although the original intention had been that they would, and regular stock transfers between the Central and Victoria did take place over the Picc.
timbo | 10.10.14 - 12:15 p.m. | #
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Has anyone asked HMRI what they think of driverless high-frequency metro operations. Last I heard (totally off-record, 'Chatham House rules', unattributable etc) was that it would come in over their dead bodies (and possibly those of others) - not "'Ef'n'Safety gorn mad", just no valid safety case had yet been made which brought down the risks to no worse than the present systems. The small bore and lack of 'safe' escape / even walking path for an ageing population who might have significantly more walking issues also contributed to this unofficial view.
But the trains DO look as if the ghosts of Pick and Holden among others have been threatening the designers.
Joel | 10.10.14 - 12:24 p.m. | #
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Like the "New Bus for London" these trains appear to be "air-cooled". It a loose term...and means they will not be "air-conditioned". Some may say that it not important or there are tech reasons for it but the reality is that when people are packed like sardines in the rush-hour it will be they who suffer. London is set to grow in population and can't help but feel sorry for those who will be treated worse than cattle in a "21st Century World City".
OnTheBus | 10.10.14 - 12:47 p.m. | #
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Yeah, I thought that full air conditioning wasn't possible on the tube lines because there was nowhere for the heat removed from the trains to dissipate to, and it would simply make the tunnels and stations too hot.
Philip | 10.10.14 - 12:52 p.m. | #
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Joel,
Given the timescale involved it might well be over their dead bodies. Of course it would be hard to make a case today but in 2030+ things may well be seen to be very different. You have to relate this to what would happen in 2030 not about what would happen today.
To a large extent I suspect that your argument about evacuating people with walking issue might be much less of an issue. These trains would almost certainly have sufficient battery power to limp into the next station, there would probably be the ability to connect a functioning train to a failed train to get it to a place of safety (a station) without resorting to people walking on the tracks and there may well be emergency inter-train connection possible to a train brought to assist if a train absolutely refused to move. Furthermore all this could be done much quicker once you eliminate the need for human liason.
In the worst case how would the situation be different than today? It is rare for the driver to evacuate a train on his own. Normally it is not started until a team of people have arrived from the nearest station.
I remember talk about "it would not happen" when One Person Operation of maually driven deep tube trains was first mooted - which first took place on the Piccadilly line.
Pedantic of Purley | 10.10.14 - 12:59 p.m. | #
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I would have thought the easy way for Boris to stick to his commitment for not buying any new trains with cabs, was simply to not buy any trains on his watch.
No doubt the new Northern Line stock (for the Battersea extension) will be ordered after he's gone...
On platform edge doors and the difference with the DLR, I suspect that the intent is that the door closure is automatic - this makes sense if you remove the cab as it will be harder for train crew to control them. On DLR they're manually controlled by staff doing a visual check. On a long train on a curved platform, that would be far more difficult.
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 10.10.14 - 1:59 p.m. | #
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@PoP
" These trains would almost certainly have sufficient battery power to limp into the next station, there would probably be the ability to connect a functioning train to a failed train to get it to a place of safety"
It depends on the circumstances - a push-out may not be possible if the train cannot roll - for example after a derailment or damage to the rails themselves, or brakes locked on.
They do look good - better than the prevoius design study which I think is supposed to make the whole front of the train look like the TfL logo but reminds me of a lamprey.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/10/04/video-undefined-1885D4CA00000578-199_636x358.jpg
PriestmanGoode are quoted as saying ".......a series of unusual size limitations thanks to the small height and width of the deep tunnels on the tube. It's unique because of the size of the tunnel which everyone knows is tiny,"
They've obviously never been to Glasgow
http://www.clans2014.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/GlasgowUnderground-2.jpg
timbo | 10.10.14 - 2:23 p.m. | #
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Andrew & Robert Re DLR.
There is a difference between driverless and unstaffed trains. The DLR is driverless but there are staff to check the doors are clear and the platform is safe before the train can depart. If they didn't have staff on the train then yes the DLR might need platform edge doors.
Jon | 10.10.14 - 9:28 p.m. | #
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So, the 'holy grail' for tube trains is for air conditioning.
And it seems that on these, they might manage 'air cooling', whatever that actually is (something not as good as air conditioning).
And then what do they do...?
"And all the displays inside will be electronic, even the route maps and adverts"
Waste energy and create unnecessary heat by pointlessly electrifying adverts.
A | 11.10.14 - 12:04 a.m. | #
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"Air conditioning" is where fresh and recycled air is processed in a central location to specified relative humidity and temperature and then pumped to where needed, as in some office blocks.
"Air cooling" is just that, the air is cooled to a specified temperature etc.
Both processes generate additional heat - if you leave the fridge door open the kitchen will get warmer.
In the case of a building this heat is dissipated into the atmosphere. In the case of a tube train this extra heat will be dissipated into the tunnel. Unless additional air is pumped into the tunnel to carry this heat away the tunnels will get hotter, and the air cooling system will have to work harder thus generating more extra heat ...
strawbrick | 11.10.14 - 8:21 a.m. | #
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@strawbrick - the kitchen gets warmer with the fridge door closed!
Tim | 11.10.14 - 12:44 p.m. | #
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A, I've often thought about the heat implications just of all the lit adverts that CBS installed in corridors, so do feel noticeably warm. Hopefully they can get low energy screens and LEDs don't produce quite so much heat.
Jon | 11.10.14 - 1:53 p.m. | #
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Will CrossRail trains not be "air-conditioned" then or have they found a way round the problem?
E | 11.10.14 - 2:04 p.m. | #
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I fear the interiors - charcoal, grey and ox blood, will feel as dark as the NBFL.
| 11.10.14 - 5:35 p.m. | #
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Coming to this discussion late but - as the mother of a teenage daughter - have to say that walk through trains are a very good idea. Much easier to get anyway from anyone who is threatening you/paying you too much attention. Just generally feel safer.
Joan | 13.10.14 - 8:58 a.m. | #
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