please empty your brain below
Yet again you've managed to find something obscure yet fascinating for us. As you state, some of their times seem odd. I'm struggling to think how any of the platforms at Greenwich DLR would need a 5 minute transfer.

IslandDweller | 26.10.15 - 8:03 a.m. | #

The inclusion of Forest Hill appears a little strange and I can only conclude that the foot overbridge is very busy at times.

I thought it must be because, unlike similar stations such as Sydenham, it only has a single entrance. However the spreadsheet states that this takes in to account the furthest gateline so that doesn't really explain it.

Pedantic of Purley | 26.10.15 - 8:22 a.m. | #

There are few there that strike me as a little odd (Upton Park, Woodgrange Park above all). Greenwich, though, I think I understand, in as much as the station has three (?) separate entrances, and to reach the DLR from one of them (the one through the main line booking hall), you have then to walk a fair way down the platform, then through a subway and up again. And given that some trains are 12 carriages, meaning that one might have to walk almost the full length of the platform before reaching the subway...maybe 5 mins is not without justification

Dominic H | 26.10.15 - 8:27 a.m. | #

@pedantic

Forest Hill has an entrance/exit on both sides.

Geofftech | 26.10.15 - 8:27 a.m. | #

I wish journey planners would have a tick box for "I'm willing to run" or "Show me routes with tight interchanges". They have the opposite for people who aren't able to move quickly.

Planning journeys that involve interchange at Clapham Junction on the National Rail website gives really useless results as they seem to assume every interchange takes 10 minutes, which often eliminates a whole range of routes. I can get from platform 17 to 1 in about a minute at a pinch, and I wish there was a way to take that into account.

Ed | 26.10.15 - 8:31 a.m. | #

The interchange time via Journey Planner (not displayed - but can be easily calculated) is from arrival to departure, not the time taken to get to the platform.

If you experiment with arrivals at Waterloo from different destinations, you generally get a seven to eight minute transfer, therefore, it seems that a new FOI request is needed, as the database is not now relying on this historic data.

I don't know how big a sample size would be needed to find the minimum transfer time now stored. And,does this time now vary throughout the day to allow for rush hour delays?!

Ken | 26.10.15 - 8:35 a.m. | #

I'd agree that some of these *look* pessimistic, but for example that mighty 15 minutes from Bakerloo to H&C at Baker Street: well, I do that every morning and evening in my commute (I don't actually change lines, but I exit the station at the H&C exit but use the Bakerloo line to travel). If you get caught up in the rush hour crush, especially in the morning (one up escalator, lots of folk, many with luggage), and perhaps you haven't mastered the art of getting your pass/ticket ready for the gate ;-), and then you use the little escalator up to the platform instead of the stairs (always slower), and then on the platform level you get shepherded around whatever corral they've got going this week (for racing travellers or those heading to a rugby match or something) - yeah, I've got no problem in setting 15 minutes as the time here, even though for me it's more likely to be nearer 8.

I saw this spreadsheet over the weekend and have saved a copy. Really useful stuff, though it was entertaining to see that the guy's original request for the info was rejected because he didn't include his surname... *sigh*

mighty mouse | 26.10.15 - 8:36 a.m. | #

Ed, I do the same as you, however, I get around the chronic Clapham Junction problem by putting in two separate journeys - one terminating at CJ, the next one starting there. I do agree that the interchange times here are way over the top. Do NR or TfL think that everyone waits for a lift up and down - or what.

Walking speeds could be amended to: Mobility impaired, With luggage, Elderly, Foreign - non Anglophile, Large family, Foreign - Anglophile, Regular commuter, Desperate, Only if the connecting train is a minute late!

I am sure that readers can come up with their own classifications... My daughter unsuccessfully attempted the last one on the list late on Friday night - she didn't make it so took plan B (I picked her up from another station near home).

Ken | 26.10.15 - 8:43 a.m. | #

How do you balance the needs of a fit and healthy person against someone with a heart condition?, or a fit and healthy person with a buggy and a five year old?, perhaps instead of time, they should have distance, that way you could calculate your own personal interchange time.

| 26.10.15 - 8:49 a.m. | #

Presumeably,these timings are taken as an average,so that the passengers who are not so lively on their pins as you young whippersnappers, have an idea of just how long it might take them.?

Jo W | 26.10.15 - 8:52 a.m. | #

I am sure the interchanges between the main line platforms at Kings Cross and the Victoria Line would be halved if they would direct you the sensible route, rather than a long route via corridors that more or less double back on yourself. Just follow the signs for Hammersmith and City Line as far as the ticket barriers, then follow the signs for Victoria line after that.

Jon Combe | 26.10.15 - 8:59 a.m. | #

I think using a lowest common denominator approach to route planning interchange times just makes the system unhelpful for all but the slowest. It would be much better to include an option for defining how fast you are and how far you're willing to walk. Obviously these are slightly tricky things to quantify precisely, but I'd love a travel planner that I could say "I'm willing to run 2KM if it'll get me there faster" (for those emergencies when you're running late!)

Ed | 26.10.15 - 9:03 a.m. | #

This is fascinating, and yet it's horribly inaccurate. Thanks TfL! Now I know why I stopped using your journey planner seven years ago.

Problem 1: In what world exactly does Hammersmith count as two stations yet Paddington, Euston and Shepherd's Bush do not?

Problem 2: I'm not quite sure how the passages at Green Park manage to be faster than:
- 6 minutes at Blackhorse Road
- 7 minutes at Gloucester Road
- 7 minutes at Moorgate

Problem 3: Not quite sure how Marylebone comes out as average; certainly not how it manages to somehow be matched by Euston (Victoria)!

This list of interchange times is definitely skewed towards the interchanges TfL would like you to use!

the orange one | 26.10.15 - 9:06 a.m. | #

Four minutes to the platforms at Chancery Lane? Not walking down the escalator, then?

Andrew | 26.10.15 - 9:36 a.m. | #

Fantastic work DG, but sadly my brain fell out half way through.

All those numbers! How do you do it?!

Chris | 26.10.15 - 10:18 a.m. | #

Why is anyone remotely surprised that the numbers don't match thier own perception/experience of using stations? TfL will never set timings that mean people have to run. They're never going to encourage "unsafe" behaviour or something people can't routinely achieve.

Of course TfL will set timings for the longest sign posted route at places like KX. Journey Planners are not designed for "world expert" transport system users. They're for Mr and Mrs Average who have to rely on the wayfinding in the station and trog along at a slow pace with all the other crowds. Be grateful if you're sufficiently experienced to be able to "ignore" what fancy computer systems tell you. I rarely use the TfL Journey Planner and would prefer to just use maps to see bus stop locations or the NR website to look at station locations / layouts to see what a possible interchange route looks like. Being able to see what somewhere looks like is better for me as I can then remember the visual route which makes it easier to achieve a quick change if necessary. I recently did this for Forest Hill which is how I learnt it has two entrances (shocked that PoP doesn't know this!).

PC | 26.10.15 - 10:26 a.m. | #

PC,

I am shocked I didn't know Forest Hill has two entrances. I have occasionally used the station for many years but less so recently. It looks like it is a recent TfL thing but I am surprised they didn't make a song and dance about it.

Pedantic of Purley | 26.10.15 - 10:32 a.m. | #

PC,

I agree; exactly why I made those particular points. It takes me less time at Baker Street, sure, but I can see why people would take TfL lengths of time. I feel TfL have missed a crucial point with their estimation of Green Park, though!

There is, however, absolutely no excuse for spending 9 minutes to get out of Marylebone tube station; there's only one way out from the platforms, it's up a staircase and then an escalator which deposits you in the middle of the concourse. Euston (Victoria) I can certainly understand.

the orange one | 26.10.15 - 11:00 a.m. | #

Times can vary widely - arriving from the Peckham direction (on platform 2) and departing on a Watford-Croydon service (platform 19) is a whole different kettle of fish from chaging from a service from East Croydon (platform 12) to one to Wimbledon (platform 11 - about 10 feet away)

Waterloo can be a very long walk - if you start at the country end of a train on platform 1 and want the Northern Line - especially if the subway is closed, and/or they've just announced the outward working of the train you arrived on as you reach the barriers and have to re-enact the Eton Wall Game to get out.

Where had you been yesterday to arrive at Platform 19 at Waterloo? Not watching the Rugby I suppose?

timbo | 26.10.15 - 11:18 a.m. | #

@Jon combe

I need to find this alternative route at Kings Cross. I've been exasperated that it takes almost as much time to reach the Victoria line platform as it does to get to my final destination once on the tube!

The national rail to tube timings for Kings Cross are a hundred percent true

Louise | 26.10.15 - 11:35 a.m. | #

@Louise

King's Cross is really easy. You have to be at the:
- South end of a Victoria Line train
- South end of a Piccadilly Line train
- South end of a Northern Line train
- East end of a Circle/H&C/Met train

From the King's Cross concourse, leave the main station, head to Euston Road and then down into the tube. You need the old ticket hall (not the Northern hall, which is vast with a single escalator to the main King's Cross concourse, or the H&C hall, which is long and thin).

the orange one | 26.10.15 - 12:58 p.m. | #

Forest Hill has had the side entrance from the southbound platform for at least 4 years, I first used it in 2011. Could have been the same year that they installed the lifts.

Geofftech | 26.10.15 - 1:21 p.m. | #

King's Cross? This diagram might help.

The old ticket hall referred to by "the orange one" is marked here as the "Existing Ticket hall" above the Northern Line platforms. There is another "Existing Ticket Hall" marked under St Pancras - this is the "long thin H&C one"

Note that although the Northern and Victoria Lines are described as northbound and southbound, they actually run east/west at Kings Cross, but in opposite directions - so the "south" end of the Northern Line is at the east end and the "south" end of the Victoria Line is at the west end!

Note also that if you are at the new ticket hall, the shortest way to the Victoria Line is via the Northern Line platforms.

Here's another diagram - this one shows the layout without the new ticket hall (access to which is at the points marked N123-2b).

timbo | 26.10.15 - 2:40 p.m. | #

Homerton 4 minutes? More like 15 seconds westbound and 30 seconds eastbound.

Steve | 26.10.15 - 4:59 p.m. | #

The handful of stations deemed "1 minute from ticket gate to platform" include:
Bow Road, Canary Wharf (Jubilee), Heathrow Terminal 4, Hoxton, Pontoon Dock, Shoreditch High Street, Stanmore and Tower Hill.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 26.10.15 - 6:57 p.m. | #

Forest Hill has had a side entrance since at least 1977 when my family moved there. It looks old judging by the brick work. Then it was a gate either left opened during rush hour or closed.

The four minutes from gate to furthest platform makes sense if one uses the lifts on both sides of the bridge. It can be done in one minute at a leisurely pace. Or 15 seconds when I was younger.

Mars Bonfire | 26.10.15 - 8:48 p.m. | #

Thanks timbo and the Orange one. Looking forward to beating the sign-posted system now!

louise | 26.10.15 - 11:24 p.m. | #

Thanks DG for doing your usual fantastic job of highlighting the interesting stuff in the spreadsheet. I can't believe it took a FOI request for TFL to release this, though, as surely this is the sort of useful information they should be publicising - and maybe if it was in the public domain some of the more obvious inaccuracies might have been ironed out.

whiff | 27.10.15 - 12:03 a.m. | #

How times have changed!

In the late 70s, I managed a 15 minute interchange between an InterCity arrival at King's Cross and a south-eastern division departure from Victoria.
(London wasn't the 24 hour city it is becoming today; before Zonal ticketing, the Underground was quiet in the late evening; and I was a teenager.)

Old Man of Kent | 27.10.15 - 5:49 a.m. | #

TheOrangeOne:
Don't forget that any interchange with NR at Marylebone must allow for the Chiltern train being at the far end of one of the short platforms. They sometimes have two departures close together on those platforms.

Old Man of Kent | 27.10.15 - 5:58 a.m. | #

@Old Man of Kent

Such is the padding in arrival times at Kings Cross that I have managed to get to Victoria before my incoming train from the north was scheduled to have arrived at Kings Cross!

timbo | 27.10.15 - 2:56 p.m. | #

@ DG - having recently tried to do "gate to platform" at Shoreditch HS I can say 1 minute might be OK for an athletic teenager but not a wonky kneed 50 year old. If a train has opened its doors then you can't get past the people pouring off the platform as there is only one entry point to the platform and it has to deal with a 2 way flow. I missed my train as a result. I suspect that aspect of the station design is not sustainable if usage grows much more.

PC | 28.10.15 - 6:23 a.m. | #

Whiff -

You make it sound as though TfL are deliberately hiding vital information. It's readily available in the form a normal passenger needs (ie as part of a result from the TfL Journey Planner, though I agree that has its drawbacks) and it's only people like us who find the raw data interesting. Someone asked, and the data was supplied (and probably would willingly have been even if FOI had not been invoked). As a peripheral insider I'd guess what you or I might see as inaccuracies are generally like it or not there for a reason.

AS | 28.10.15 - 9:12 p.m. | #

It seems that TfL's data is questionable anyway as the first station I looked for was Stratford, and they seem to have forgotten that the Jubilee Line goes there!

Mike Harris | Homepage | 14.02.16 - 8:49 p.m. | #











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