please empty your brain below
I hope that the almost ethereal like next train indicators can be maintained in working order in tandem with the new system.
The sense of nostalgia they invoke is wonderous to behold. I should know, I spent enough time over past years staring at them willing for Wimbledon to appear (and playing guess the platform, of course).
A few months ago, all they could say was District line (stating the obvious) and Piccadilly line (stating a lie - it doesn't stop there).
Now there are proper destinations and minutes, they are mostly accurate and don't shuffle around.
The 'abnormal' day had nothing to do with it - Plaistow's Next Train Indicators were unable to correctly display the trains that were running.
Wonder how the indicator boards compare to the app/website next train page and if their source of data is the same (hope so).
Since it is unlikely that one of the aims was 'Get the changes made even if the displays don't show the right information', then there is presumably no oversight and. rather like the saga of Bus Stop M, the project will drift on, leaving passengers frustrated.
The team who are making these changes must lurk somewhere. Is there a way of getting them to read DG?
And yet it just stays there, constantly updating to be sure, but constantly replacing rubbish with rubbish.
It seems no-one really cares. I'm not saying that is the case, but does seem like it is the case.
Where the 1st train to Upminster (call it number T001) was delayed and then the destination changed to Upminster, a possible scenario is:
T001 was delayed outside West Ham while a train in front detrained in the platform and then went into West Ham sidings. T001 could then carry on its journey EB. Assuming that the system thinks T001 is 1 minute away from Plaistow when it is sitting outside West Ham (the timing may not be dead accurate), the train is always going to be seen as 1 min away however long it waits there.
Meanwhile, the destination of T001 could have been changed from Upminster to Barking, possibly at some time between Whitechapel and West Ham, but the system may not have picked it up until T001 departed West Ham and thus only updated the DMI then. Or, if the DMI was still showing Upminster but the train itself was showing Barking, then the system may not picked the change up or it may have been a last minute change.
Details of the Northern line Positive Train Identification operation are available here:
http://www.microlp.co.uk/Homea/homeafiles/PTTCPT2Ni1.pdf
I don't know how the subsurface system compares
Nevertheless, the display suggested three consecutive Upminster trains were on their way, and had done for several minutes.
If it was believed that the additional information supplied would be "nearly always" correct, then it was a good idea to implement it. However, if it was known that it would be as flaky as DG's observations suggest, then it would have been much better to restrict the display (say to just the next train).
So the problem arises, not just from flaky information, but from information with an unknown level of flakiness. Analogous to Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns".
I will look forward with interest to see if it displays, what my family have come to call, "TfL minutes"!!
Sounds like it was screwed then :-)
dg writes: Noted, and post updated, thanks.
Certainly I've nearly been caught out a few times at Amersham, when I arrive at the station (on platform 3, where almost every London train departs from) to see a Met train opposite in platform 2 (where Met trains normally arrive, de-train and depart into the reversing siding) about to head into London and it's only as I know that the train has a minute to depart that I know to get over the footbridge and get on the train. Indicators would be nice.
Rickmansworth has displays, and - for some reason - it displays "Chiltern train" rather than Aylesbury / Aylesbury VP / Marylebone. Hopefully the new ones in Bucks (if his Mayorship and the boiled egg are happy with TfL spending money outside the GLA border - neither like doing it) will be able to deal with that simple task.
As I understand it though, TfL use the same feeds internally that us "open data developers" do. Therefore the more they use them you'd expect them to get better.
Unfortunately, my experience so far has suggested otherwise!
I do read 'See front of train' as 'Hammersmith & City' usually.
As for the indicator at the top of the stairs at Upminster, it is presumably outside your scope. But it is a disaster. When it eventually announces the next train if from Platform 3 and you take the lift down, the train has just gone, and then you take the lift up and down again at Platform 4 but may miss that one too.
I can recall, albeit a fair few years ago, that trying to get genuine improvements to Trackernet where old infrastructure was in place was far from easy. No one is going to spend mega bucks now when the master 4LM programme is going to sweep all the old stuff away. I suspect what DG is seeing is a small step change at this point although the indicator infrastructure would seem to be for the future.
Aldgate East may be doing better than before simply because there is no longer the bay platform at Whitechapel and therefore marginally better data is available by linking signalling section data together from Bromley by Bow inwards.
The only place where I'd expect to see a demonstrable improvement would be on the Hammersmith branch where new kit is in place. However whether the S Stock trains are "talking" to the system yet I don't know. I suspect not other than under planned possessions.
dg writes: This is a genuine TfL programme of station improvements, honest, not just a few casual observations.
The information on the signs should be the same as available on the various apps (such as Citymapper).
The Train Description (TD) system on the east end of the District Line that is used for this information and routing trains can get one (or more) out of step, which I think explains the problems yesterday. The closure at Latimer Road meant lots of cancellations and changes, which wouldn't have helped.
You mention a few that are missing from the list. These have been done: Ravenscourt Park, Stamford Brook, High Street Kensington, East Ham and Dagenham East. Some of the information at East Ham and Dag East is fairly limited, but it is an improvement.
Watford cannot be done until the signalling upgrade - the customer information available now is based on real time train locations, so it would not know when trains leave Watford. This is why predictions a couple of stops from terminal stations are limited. Pretty much every station that can have something done is on that list.
Rickmansworth - trains are only identified as Chiltern Trains as the 1960s LU signalling only identifies them as Chiltern Trains rather than specific destinations. We are working on adding information from Network Rail to show the destination this year.
Yes DG - Bow Road is planned, we should invite you to the unveiling. I've been reading this blog for years and maybe this is the chance to meet.
I think that's all questions answered!
Maybe I picked the wrong day to go to Plaistow, but the information was so wrong it's hard to believe disruption so far away (and in the opposite direction) caused all of it.
There again, the underlying Trackernet system is so unreliable, as years of using the District line have proved, that anything is possible.
It's great to see improvements are on their way, even at an early stage, but all I saw on the displays yesterday was legitimised inaccuracy.
Thanks for the update about Watford too - my assumption had been that there's no point upgrading a station that's (*cough*) due to close in 2020.
There are irritations like displays that show
1. 08:25 London Waterloo Expected 08:40
2. 08:35 London Waterloo On Time
Well then the first train will be the 08:35 then won't it? The other problem is that the displays only show a maximum of 3 trains and it keeps trains sorted in scheduled time arrival, which means when there is disruption you just end up with it showing 3 trains all as "Delayed" but when a train actually arrives and it's not one of those 3, it does not tell you where it's going or where it's stopping. The destination on the front of the train helps with where it's going, but it does not help with where it stops "Does this train stop at Clapham Junction?".
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