please empty your brain below
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Thameslink 2000 should be completed reasonably soon.
Andrew | 06.02.13 - 12:42 a.m. | #
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Maybe it's because I'm a primary school teacher and spend too much time with little kids but I actually quite like that clipart map; I do wonder, though, why Chessington with its zoo doesn't get a picture of an animal!
Whiff | 06.02.13 - 5:54 a.m. | #
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"Piccadilly Circus" - isn't on the offical map. Either of them.
Briantist | Homepage | 06.02.13 - 6:08 a.m. | #
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Ah yes, no Piccadilly Circus, sorry. It's been in previous plans for the Chelsea Hackney line, but it's not in this one. Too expensive to build, and too close to Tottenham Court Road, I guess. I've scrubbed it from my list.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 06.02.13 - 6:51 a.m. | #
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West Anglia at Ally Pally? First Crapital Connect, actually.
| 06.02.13 - 7:44 a.m. | #
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The Lea Valley route will terminate at Hertford East. The report does not mention Stansted as a destination.
PC | 06.02.13 - 7:59 a.m. | #
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All sounds very good - what about a station for all those new neighbourhoods near the Olympic Park north as well as velopark and eton manor that are not near Stratford or Leyton? Between Tottenham Hale and Hackney?
kissenme | 06.02.13 - 8:14 a.m. | #
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I'm doing well this morning :(
diamond geezer | 06.02.13 - 8:19 a.m. | #
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yes, thanks DG you've also managed to make us feel all depressed about the fact that the majority of us are going to be decrepit old people with mobility issues when this rail line is (just about) built in our life time. Now i feel old ...
:-p
geofftech | Homepage | 06.02.13 - 9:51 a.m. | #
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I wanted to find out the people or companies behind this London First business group, but Google brings up this particular piece of news in the first few pages. Do they exist at all? :) Who are they?
Greg | 06.02.13 - 10:04 a.m. | #
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Greg -
You can see who's on the board here:
http://londonfirst.co.uk/about/our-board/
None of the names ring many bells with me, admittedly.
Simon | 06.02.13 - 10:13 a.m. | #
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And SE London gets screwed over once again... thus continuing 150 years of discrimination.
Seriously, this isn't just self-interest. A strategy of building more lines to 'relieve congestion' by duplicating existing lines (ie Victoria) is short-sighted. It leads to certain parts of London getting better and better connected, more and more in demand, thus leading to more calls to 'relieve congestion'. A strategy of building to places where there may not be quite as high demand now, but where there's space to bring new areas into London's list of well-connected areas and ideally build quality new affordable housing (eg redevelopment along Old Kent Rd) is a much better and sustainable way to solve London's housing crisis.
A southeastwards Bakerloo extension should come before this.
SE Londoner | 06.02.13 - 10:22 a.m. | #
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London First can be quite vocal.
However, this scheme has been worked up by TfL. TfL are pushing Crossrail 2. It is referred to in the MTS and in the TfL Business Plan. Incidentally, this was the timeline from last year:
Finalise new safeguarding plans 2013
Safeguarding re-fresh and consultation 2013-2014
Detailed scheme design 2014-2015
Environmental Statement preparation 2014-2015
Planning powers preparation 2015-2016
Planning powers application and approval 2016-2017
Final detailed scheme design and funding 2017-2019
Procurement 2019-2020
Construction 2021-2029
Commissioning and testing 2030
Crossrail2 opens 2031
Flare | 06.02.13 - 10:26 a.m. | #
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Eight years before they actually start building anything? It's needed now - indeed it was needed thirty years ago. But there has been so much debate over the route: the perfect always being the enemy of the good. Reports going back to the 1940s, and in more detail the 1960s, recommended several routes which should have been built by now:
1. a north-east - south route, which became the Victoria Line but should have been extended to Croydon
2. a north west- south east route, which became the Jubilee Line. The eastern end which should have gone to SE London, but was hijacked by the Isle of Docks.
3. a north south route, which became Thameslink 2000 (thirteen years late and still less than half built)
4. what we know as Crossrail 1
5. a SW/NE route, now Crossrail 2 but now hijacked to run further west to relieve the Victoria Line because that was not adequately future-proofed.
Even relatively minor jobs, like extending the Bakerloo to Camberwell or the Aldwych shuttle to Waterloo (as a preliminary to being incorporated in the proposed route of Chelney) were passed over as "too difficult".
But successive governments (local and national) have all talked about it and done nothing. We can't wait 25 years - these lines are needed now.
Look at the motorway system - largely completed between 1958 and 1970. The RER - five lines (and a new Metro line) since 1977.
| 06.02.13 - 10:58 a.m. | #
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When I first saw the Crossrail 2 route, I was pleased to see that a lot of it practically mirrors my daily commute. However, I then remembered that I probably won't be making the same journey every day in 20-25 years, by the time the route is complete. Why do these things always take so long?
Andrewh | Homepage | 06.02.13 - 11:20 a.m. | #
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Andrew
"Thameslink 2000 should be completed reasonably soon" If by "reasonably soon" you mean "sooner than Crossrail 1" I'm afraid you'll be disappointed - both projects are scheduled to be completed in 2018. TL2000, which eventually started in 2009, is less than half complete: neither Blackfriars nor Farringdon are finished, the Borough market viaduct is in place but no track will be laid on it for sevreal years yet, work is ongoing on the relatively minor track layout changes at Tanners Hill, and nothing at all has yet been done at London Bridge or Bermondsey, or to connect St Pancras TL to the Great Northern route.
And yes, Crossrail 2 mirrors my commute fairly closely (although I'd probably want to switch at Tooting). But I expect to have retired before Crossrail 1 is finished, never mind Crossrail 2!
Why does CR2 have to wait for CR1 to be finished? If it needs doing, why wait? I don't think TBM's are rationed, are they? Even if they are, work can start on CR2 as soon as the TBMs are done on CR1, whilst the first one is being fitted out.
timbo | 06.02.13 - 12:13 p.m. | #
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Well said SE Londoner
Chris | 06.02.13 - 2:37 p.m. | #
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SE Londoner - Yes the Bakerloo should have been extended by now. yes the Northern should have been extended to Streatham and the Victoria to Croydon. and yes the Fleet Line should have gone to Lewisham, not back across the river to Canary Wharf. But Thameslink will spead several tentacles into south east London, and connections across the Thames have improved in recent years too, with two DLR and three Jubilee line tunnels.
Once Thameslink and CR1 are complete, every London borough except one will have at least one rail service (I include Tubes) going right across central London Z1 and out the other side - and the exception is not in the south east.
timbo | 06.02.13 - 2:53 p.m. | #
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Thank goodness someone is doing something about it: if we waited for the governmint (any governmint) to come up with a plan, we'd all be dead (rather than just retired) before anything happened.
Why, oh why do successive administrations keep dodging vital issues about infrastructure?
It's the energy infrastructure's future that scares me most.
Blue Witch | Homepage | 06.02.13 - 3:07 p.m. | #
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The tracks north of Tottenham Hale are already overused, as you say, and there will be more demand when 5000 new homes are built near Angel Road station on the North Circular - the so-called Meridian Water development.
Perhaps the developers of that project could help find the money to keep Crossrail Two in tunnel as far as that point?
A good interchange station at Angel Road would also provide better pedestrian access to football matches than from Tottenham Hale, which is a bit too far away.
I apologise for wittering on about a little part of the proposed line. I suppose everyone wants better transport to the centre from their patch.
Bob Lindsay-Smith | 06.02.13 - 5:45 p.m. | #
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Thameslink 2000 - I was trying (but clearly failing) to be somewhat sceptical about the timetable for CR2. People were talking about it for nearly 20 years before work started. If it is anything like Thameslink, it will be the 2050s before CR2 opens.
Heavens, it is going to be the mid to late 2020s at the earliest before the *first* phase of HS2 opens. I am not holding my breath.
Andrew | 06.02.13 - 5:47 p.m. | #
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But is someone doing something about it? This is just the great and the good declaring Crossrail 2 to be a Good Thing (or rather a new version slightly modified from the previous version, which is itself a slightly -modified etc etc...). If they'd starting digging when the idea was first drawn up, it would have been finished by now, and we would now be building Crossrail 4.
In one decade, between 1898 and 1907, the entire central London sections of six Tube lines were built, (and the Circle Line was electrified to boot). How have we become so very bad at this?
Thinks - if all the paper (or screens) used to discuss the project were collected together, would there be enough yet to line the tunnels when it eventually gets built?
| 06.02.13 - 5:48 p.m. | #
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You're missing an [Overground] on Euingrossancras.
dg writes: Added, thanks.
That is one mega megahub.
Kirk | 06.02.13 - 6:47 p.m. | #
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In a way it's kind of silly they're half a mile apart. If only the British Library wasn't in the way, they could move it when they redevelop it...
Kirk | 06.02.13 - 7:36 p.m. | #
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There may be yet another tube line on the list at St Euston Cross (or Pancroston) if the Northern Line is split by then.
timbo | 06.02.13 - 10:52 p.m. | #
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Yes another winge from a SE Londoner - even on your map there is a huge gap in SE London - does no-one care? We might as well be looking at Nad's Map - see Page 439 of 'On the Map'by Simon Garfield. I shall be 91 so little hope there...
Linda Smither | 06.02.13 - 11:35 p.m. | #
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Do people who live in SE London move there without investigating the public transport network first, I wonder?
Blue Witch | Homepage | 07.02.13 - 8:20 a.m. | #
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timbo - Thameslink doesn't provide anywhere near tube frequencies outside the central core (and that core is mainly north of the river). The DLR and Jubilee extensions only serve a patch close to the river. Both DLR and Jubilee run largely north of the river.
Blue Witch - don't residents along the Victoria line move there without investigating the congestion on the existing line? Do Chelsea residents move there without investigating the transport connections first?
SE Londoner | 07.02.13 - 9:01 a.m. | #
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Looking at your rough google map, it seems that there are twio missed opportunites to provide stations at Stoke Newington and Clapton, both communities that have a pretty poor rail service for their importance.
Priest_Field | 07.02.13 - 9:56 a.m. | #
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I don't see why HS2 isn't running through CR1, with TCR as the main London interchange, and then on to Ebbsfleet to change for Eurostar, rather than ripping up huge parts of Camden. Gauging issues aside, that is (because let's face it, if the rolling stock for HS2 is ONLY continental gauge, they're going to have to close down huge chunks of HS2 completely as they won't be able to use the existing network to provide relief routes).
TRT | 07.02.13 - 11:09 a.m. | #
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KINGSton, KINGS Road, KINGS cross. I think we have a better name for this route than Crossrail 2.
Btw your geographical map has two Dalston Junction stations on it.
sykobee | 07.02.13 - 1:11 p.m. | #
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Skyobee -
The eastern "Dalston Junction" is Hackney.
dg writes: Fixed now. Thanks, both.
langdon | 07.02.13 - 1:32 p.m. | #
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@ sykobee, the "Chelsea-Hackney" line was proposed many (at least 40) years ago from Wimbledon to link with the Epping branch of the Central line. a space has been retained at Leytonstone station for a new track. it was frequently referred to as The King's Line" though it was always unclear which king, possibly the arrival now expected. the Crossrail 2 proposal has modified these plans, but the name is still appropriate.
amber | 07.02.13 - 3:18 p.m. | #
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SE Londoner - are you really saying that people move to new homes without investigating the obvious things like transport links? Sorry, but, that being the case they really can't complain. Darwin Award.
Blue Witch | Homepage | 07.02.13 - 8:40 p.m. | #
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@amber -- just as the extension of the Bakerloo beyond the Elephant was first suggested in at least the 1930s. Unlikely before the 2030s; probably never at all.
Alan Burkitt-Gray | 08.02.13 - 1:56 p.m. | #
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@timbo -- TBMs not rationed, but possibly tunnel engineer are. Most of them are doing CR1 now. When that finishes they'll be off to HS2.
Tunnellers always used to complain that no one planned projects so that they could move from one to the next. Instead when the Jubilee line (Baker St to Charing Cross I mean) was done they went off the the Hong Kong underground or whatever. Now at last someone realises that projects should be sequenced.
Alan Burkitt-Gray | 08.02.13 - 2:00 p.m. | #
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looking at the routes on the googlemap, wouldn't it make more sense to split the line at Dalston Junction rather than Angel?
Brian | 09.02.13 - 8:59 p.m. | #
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Brian: It depends if you live in Hackney or not...
Briantist | Homepage | 10.02.13 - 8:09 a.m. | #
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