please empty your brain below
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Brilliant! Well done.
Michael Woods | Homepage | 23.07.22 - 7:19 a.m. | #
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Rather than waste ANY time or resources at a cash-strapped TfL it seems that the FOI Requester could have very well done their own leg work like you and researched the answer to their query themselves…. The way some people abuse the FOI system for trivial purposes never ceases to amaze. Good on TfL for deflecting this one!
Joe | 23.07.22 - 7:31 a.m. | #
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533 - so you don't think Hammersmith Bridge will ever be fixed.
324, 375, 377, 491 & 498 - new but replaced the London end of routes operated commercially, the 418 was a commercially operated route where the London end was taken over by TfL who also modified it, on that basis the 405 (04/01) and 406 (01/01) should be included as they were modified (losing the country end) when TfL took them over, the 549 (08/03) is new as far as TfL is concerned but they didn't change it when they took over.
Still Anon | 23.07.22 - 7:37 a.m. | #
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Is there a presumption in the FoI department that only internal TfL sources can be used? And if so, what is the reason for such a presumption?
Malcolm of Kent | 23.07.22 - 7:41 a.m. | #
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Malcolm. Yes. It’s about information an organisation holds. Information held by others is not TFL’s responsibility and not for them to research. FOI is about opening up information to public view. It’s not a bespoke research service.
When answering an FOI you answer the question that’s asked if you can from information your organisation holds. Nothing more.
Jim | 23.07.22 - 7:57 a.m. | #
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TfL could probably work it out relatively quick but what a waste of a persons time in the buses team that gets dedicated to this FOI request and taken away from day-to-day business.
The individual as you suggest could have worked it out using online resources. FOI’s should be there for spending and decision transparency not spending our tax paying money on an individual’s fantasy requests that give any of us any benefit.
Dev | 23.07.22 - 7:58 a.m. | #
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The 372 replaced part of the commercially operated 324.
The 370 was modified by TfL when they took over in November 2007.
The 428 and 467 were added before 2001.
I think that's as far as routes taken over by TfL.
Still Anon | 23.07.22 - 8:07 a.m. | #
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370, 405, 406 and 549 added, thanks.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 23.07.22 - 8:20 a.m. | #
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I think 'too much cost' is just a response given when they cannot be bothered or don't know which department in which the information would be held.
Of course, the 405 and 406 aren't new routes, they're nearly 100 years old now. They just weren't run by TfL before
Greg | 23.07.22 - 8:50 a.m. | #
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LRT/TfL went through a phase of adding capacity over Central London sections of routes by partially splitting them and adding a new route, e.g. the 436 and 453 were the northern parts of the 36 and 53, but duplicated much of the rest of the 36 and 53 to add capacity there.
So a new route, but not one actually service anywhere new!
Mikey C | 23.07.22 - 9:18 a.m. | #
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As part of my job I respond to FOIs for a local authority's housing department. Most consist of people with an axe to grind who want to waste time, or angry racists who seem believe we secretly allocate all council properties to illegal migrants.
Tom | 23.07.22 - 9:31 a.m. | #
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I wonder what the benefit of this information would have been to the initial requestor?
As other commenters are saying, is this really a good use of TfL budget to answer pretty pointless questions?
Sourav | 23.07.22 - 9:49 a.m. | #
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Me again.
435 June 2005 through March 2008.
R6 - 12/01
R7 - 12/03
R8 - 02/04
U5 - 01/04 - it was similar the previous version.
S7 introduced between Colliers Wood and Cheam in November 2002, replaced by the 470 in July 2003 - rumour was that it was to avoid confusion with the 57 in Colliers Wood.
The 205 had a partner, the 705 between Paddington and Liverpool Street, withdrawn 05/05
363 - May 2003, split of the 63
440 - May 2002, replaced most of the H40
Does the 603 count? 01/04
I think that's it.
Still Anon | 23.07.22 - 10:16 a.m. | #
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I'd be reluctant for the legislation to require a "legitimate" reason for FOI requests, and it would need an ombudsman to assess. I do though wish that in the interest of true transparency people would give some background to the question to help others benefit from any answer.
Andrew S | 23.07.22 - 10:25 a.m. | #
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363, 435, 440, R6 and 705 added, thanks.
diamond geezer | 23.07.22 - 10:29 a.m. | #
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A better question would be “how much money has your organisation been forced to waste answering or rejecting stupid FoI requests which are submitted without the need for any reason”.
Kev | 23.07.22 - 10:46 a.m. | #
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The "better question" would seem to refer to itself.
I think part of the point of FoI is to try to demonstrate that there are no secrets. If a member of my family asks me a question of which I cannot see the point, I will still answer it if I can.
Malcolm of Kent | 23.07.22 - 11:13 a.m. | #
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I feel sorry for the requestor if they are interested in busses enough to submit an FOI request, but are somehow unaware of your (amazing) blog.
Jaime | 23.07.22 - 12:25 p.m. | #
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Oh - actually, the FOI request was submitted publically via WhatDoTheyKnow:
You can add a comment there and it will notify the original requestor by email.
Jaime | 23.07.22 - 12:29 p.m. | #
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The user has asked a LOT of questions about bus routes... mostly Ne london ones. but several about school routes, night busses and temporary routes... so They may be less than satisfied with your answer.
but given this, the odds are he's already read this post.
Alistair Twin | 23.07.22 - 12:56 p.m. | #
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With a minimum 36 requests in a year, this MWLB is probably getting close to the point where TFL give him the 'vexatious' brush off.
The commissioner and the First Tier Tribunal are quite sympathetic to organisations rejecting mass or repeated requests from the same person. They have broadly developed a reasonableness test and this is getting towards the end of being unreasonable.
He's genuinely costing thousands a year in staff time.
Jim | 23.07.22 - 1:35 p.m. | #
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Jim: What’s MWLB short for?
dg writes: Men Who Like Buses
Brian | 23.07.22 - 2:13 p.m. | #
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The question should be asked why TfL couldn't be bothered to answer this question. Makes me wonder what they have got to hide.
Tones | 23.07.22 - 5:38 p.m. | #
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You didn't add the R7, R8 and S7 mentioned above in the comments to your list.
dg writes: No I didn't.
The 87 - I missed that one, very irritating, answering the FoI request didn't turn out to be the open goal it appeared, I think fourteen routes have been added to your original answer, would TfL have paid either of us £25 an hour for that level of performance, and this is the dumbed down version of the question, no night buses, school routes, mobility buses and temporary services.
I'm not entirely sure what the list demonstrates, it could indicate a lack of development after 2010, but route changes have continued since then, and it doesn't distinguish between truly new routes like the 323 and the renumbering of existing services like the R10.
Still Anon | 23.07.22 - 6:28 p.m. | #
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Tones: they did bother to answer, with a very sensible refusal, which unfortunately cost staff time to do so.
Kev | 23.07.22 - 7:21 p.m. | #
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A number of them happened thanks to incumbent operators from outside London withdrawing the London section of the route.
Arriva Surrey & West Sussex did this with the 405,406,418, & 465. Section of the 405 south of Redhill was renumbered 100, the section of the 406 & 418 south of Epsom was renumbered 460.The 465 was a fairly new route, being introduced by London & Country in 1992 as a replacement for Green Line 714. The 465 ended up with TFL when Arriva shut their base at Warnham, on the outskirts of Horsham and moved their Horsham routes to Crawley. They renumbered the Dorking to Horsham section of the 465 to 93.
The 498 was introduced when First Eastern National withdrew their historic 151 & 251 routes west of Brentwood.
Kevin Lucioni | 23.07.22 - 10:27 p.m. | #
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Men Who Like Buses: 4
Men Who Like Talking About FoI: 14
diamond geezer | Homepage | 23.07.22 - 11:03 p.m. | #
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Maybe FOI spotting is the next big thing, we can discuss the latest fonts the responses are in, and note stylistic differences in rejection letters. laugh at the subtle zingers when they note article 2334 when denying requests.
Full disclosure: I only like buses when they are taking me to the pub and FOI request when they are unearthing corruption/ incompetence. I've yet to meet an FOI request which will get me to the pub.
Alistair Twin | 23.07.22 - 11:46 p.m. | #
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congratulations you are a MWLB
Al B | Homepage | 29.05.23 - 11:30 a.m. | #
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