please empty your brain below
This issue affects countries in northern Europe more than those in southern Europe.
Also as there is no attempt to have a single time across the EU, this seems rather pointless as neighbouring countries can have different times e.g. Spain and Portugal

Scientist | 31.03.19 - 6:14 a.m. | #

Having lived in Orkney for two years after forty one in Kent, I can attest that sunrise after nine am in the dead of winter takes some getting used to, especially on a gloomy day, of which there are many. That said, I for one would welcome some - any - form of permanence. Set it at GMT where it really ought to be, and leave it there.

Burntweenie | 31.03.19 - 7:13 a.m. | #

This certainly seems like a step in the right direction. All the pros and cons of permanent GMT vs GMT+1 are premised on us doing things by the same time according to the clock as we do now. But if we fix the clock, we can vary the times we do things, e.g. work 8-4 rather than 9-5 (which is essentially what we are doing with BST) if we want to take advantage of evening light. This means there's no reason why the permanent time zone adopted shouldn't be GMT - and there's one very good reason that it should be - it's *real* time, when noon means the sun is directly overhead, giving everything an anchor in reality and much simpler and clearer. I've been arguing for year round GMT all my adult life - could it really be about to happen?

Sarah | Homepage | 31.03.19 - 7:24 a.m. | #

Having lived in Stockholm during one winter, my vote is for GMT+1!

But I can feel this whole thing descending into “Blue Passports “ territory....

Southern Heights (Light Railway) | 31.03.19 - 7:36 a.m. | #

Permanent Summer Time for me. It would make the winter more pleasant, and given better alignment with Europe. The Scots can't magic more daylight.

John B | 31.03.19 - 7:39 a.m. | #

I’ve said before on here that not only is daylight savings a great idea, but changing the clocks a second time for June and July, would be even better.

Jimmy | 31.03.19 - 7:55 a.m. | #

"In the depths of winter the sun wouldn't rise before 9am, which would mean going to work or school in the dark and probably more accidents too"
Surely we could just locally change the time schools and workplaces begin in the mornings?

DGD | 31.03.19 - 8:03 a.m. | #

Those tables just illustrate what a good idea daylight savings time is.

Sunrise after 9am in midwinter or at 3am in midsummer doesn't seem a good idea.

Eric | 31.03.19 - 8:03 a.m. | #

Iceland does not have daylight saving and stays on GMT all year without any trouble.

We should stay on GMT and move work patterns. Businesses could choose. Most organisations already have their own working hours, generally based on business sector.

Perhaps working time could use a split; north of Leeds to GMT+1 and to GMT+2 to the south? This tends to happen already.

Logic | 31.03.19 - 8:05 a.m. | #

Norway and Sweden seem happy to be on European time in spite of large areas being further north than Scotland.
Apart from Portugal, other European countries preferred to have their daylight at the end of the day instead of the beginning. During WW2 we did the same as we were on double summertime - so we could have as much daylight as possible during the 'productive' day.

Still Anon | 31.03.19 - 8:07 a.m. | #

This issue just goes to show the mania that Brexit has produced. Some extreme leavers are trying to bill this as a further example of EU interference. But they said that about speed limiters on cars until the government was quick to point out we will be supporting this measure and implementing it regardless of whether we are in the EU or not.

My fear is that if we leave a lot of rational decisions (like this one) that need to be made will be made on an emotive basis citing 'not being governed by Brussels' or such appealing but nonsensical soundbite.

I also feel that a lot of people are going to be angry as they will argue we haven't really left the EU as we will be shadowing what they do regardless of the fact that the decisions will in future be made of our own free will.

Pedantic of Purley | 31.03.19 - 8:23 a.m. | #

There is an interesting de facto situation where I work where the working day, although contractually 0900-1730, starts earlier during the winter (for some people even earlier than 0700), the reason being that an unexpectedly large proportion of people dislike driving in the dark and, with a very early start, can at least get home when there is light.

Alastair Scott | 31.03.19 - 8:28 a.m. | #

Right. And note that if you have to make one of your commutes in the dark because daylight is too short then it's better for that to be the morning one because you are less tired.

Malcolm | 31.03.19 - 8:46 a.m. | #

@Pedantic of Purley: Hear, hear. (I especially like your use of the word "shadowing"!)
There were a few years in the late 1960s when we were on permanent "summer" time. According to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents, this saved around 2,500 deaths and serious accidents. See here.

Tim W | 31.03.19 - 8:50 a.m. | #

Britain, or England if the unthinkable happens, should ALWAYS use GMT, because this is the very place GMT is DEFINED.

France, Andorra and Spain should also use GMT IMHO.

Patrickov | 31.03.19 - 9:04 a.m. | #

If I were to pick between GMT+1 and GMT, I'd go with GMT+1, the evening time is more useful.

However, in the end this is a false choice. What we are effectively saying is that we, as a world, have decided that people should start work around 0800 and leave it around 1700, and that we want that to be in daylight where possible, and that we should adjust the clocks to make that happen.

What we should do is adopt Universal Coordinated Time, which, handily for us, is based on GMT.

Before the 1800s, we measured time based on when noon (distinct from 1200) was. That the time in Bristol was a few minutes off time in London didn't matter as no one could get quickly enough between the two.

Then in the 1800s we invented railways, and suddenly those few minutes between London and Bristol mattered. We rightly agreed that having different time at each point in the country was nonsensical, and standardised to Greenwich time, and (mostly) integer hours different around the world.

In the 1900s UTC was invented for applications which required syncing globally, but we still carried on with our local timezones. If I want to know what time an event in another country is, I need to convert that local timezone to UTC, then convert that back into my own timezone. Because of that things get confused and people miss out.

There will be some who say "I don't want to have to get up at 0200 just because I live in Pakistan". But that would be the same time you get up already, and that it's 0200 rather than 0700 makes no difference - it will be exactly as light as it would be if you called that time 2200 or Zergyblergytime. Around the world you adjust what times people work to follow daylight, just as we do now.

UTC. Because the time for you should be the time for me. Just don't necessarily expect me to be awake.

Matt Buck | 31.03.19 - 9:06 a.m. | #

In or out, UK or Spain or France, the issue of UK time zone has always been treated with emotive phrases like "Berlin Time".

@Malcolm: But people are much more tired in the morning if they are 'jetlagged' due to waking up before their body wants to wrt sunrise. There's tons of scientific papers saying that people in Prague are much less tired in the morning than people in Barcelona, and that it is due to the clocks issue.

Si | 31.03.19 - 9:16 a.m. | #

I would have a hard time adopting UTC. That means the day probably starts when I am about to leave for work, work starts at 0100, lunch at 0500, working day ends at 1000, and I spend the last 8 hours of the day sleeping. Maybe aligning to our mental clock (days start at us waking up) but it doesn't feel right whatsoever.

Patrickov | 31.03.19 - 9:24 a.m. | #

The biggest difficulty with universal UTC would not be with the times, which are only labels after all. It would be with the moment when the date changes. Starting to write a work email on Wednesday and finding that by the time you send it, it has turned into Thursday would be seriously discombobulating.

Malcolm | 31.03.19 - 10:16 a.m. | #

There is so little daylight in Iceland in winter, and so much in summer, that it probably makes little difference what time zone they use.

Your suggested split would be more convenient at the Scottish border. Northern Ireland could use the same zone as both Ireland and (part of) the UK.

AB | 31.03.19 - 10:24 a.m. | #

During WW2 we had 'Double Summer Time' (GMT+2). It meant that the bombs fell later...

Local Lad | 31.03.19 - 10:30 a.m. | #

There is no daylight saving time here in Japan and I have not found any problems with it for the past 10 years.

Jon Allen | 31.03.19 - 10:32 a.m. | #

The way to go is summer time in winter, GMT+1, double summer time in summer, GMT+2.
Also known as BST and DBST.

This was tried sometime recentlyish (60s? Harold Wilson?) and it was great. Still light at 10pm in summer. Garden parties until midnight...

dg writes: See here.

Joho | 31.03.19 - 10:40 a.m. | #

Oh ye gods, I hope we don't have a referendum on it!!!

Personally I'd prefer the continual BST as I love the longer lighter evenings, though parents with young children might not agree. But would they be happy with them waking at 3am instead? I think not! Kids will eventually fall asleep when tired, but it's much harder to keep them asleep once they've woken up!

Cornish Cockney | 31.03.19 - 11:27 a.m. | #

it be a blessing for it to change one last time and be done with it.

Grumpy Anon | 31.03.19 - 11:34 a.m. | #

I was a child when we tried the experiment in the 60s. I remember having to wear reflective bands over my coat in winter so that we could be seen by traffic when going to school - I also remember how dismal and frightening this felt.
I lived near Liverpool - God knows what it was like for kids in Scotland.

Margaret | 31.03.19 - 11:36 a.m. | #

As I am retired and do not have to get to work on time, and prefer BST I keep my timing on that all year. So look forward to everyone else in UK getting into step with me in the future if BST is adopted.

John | 31.03.19 - 11:36 a.m. | #

"Mainland Britain won't care, but as is so often the case with Brexit the full impact will be felt across the Irish Sea."

So true!

Charles | Homepage | 31.03.19 - 12:00 p.m. | #

Staying on GMT is a bad idea because of the choices that we, collectively as a society, have made. We've decided that leisure time comes after the working day, not before it. So it makes perfect sense that daylight is shifted towards the end of the day. 3am sunrises don't help anyone, and one of your mid-winter trips to work *will* be in darkness and it matters little (in a practical sense, we all have preferences) which one it is.

I'm also in favour of keeping DST, but at GMT+1/+2. But I'm okay with a permanent +1. EU DST is already out of sync with North America, so no major concerns there.

Chz | 31.03.19 - 12:10 p.m. | #

As I recall, the experiment in the 1960s was GMT+1 all year round

Timbo | 31.03.19 - 12:36 p.m. | #

Harold Wilson's dabble with permanent summer time - called British Standard Time - lasted from 27 October 1968 to 31 October 1971.

The experiment ended after the House of Commons voted 366 to 81 against BST, following a lengthy debate during the winter of 1970.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 31.03.19 - 12:50 p.m. | #

Why not split the difference: GMT + ½?

martin in canada | 31.03.19 - 12:55 p.m. | #

Leave winter alone (GMT), don't go there, it's just too difficult because there's no wasted daylight to reallocate. The circle simply can't be squared, so forget it.

However, summer is a different matter entirely. Let's be bold and go for Double Summer Time (GMT+2). There are virtually no losers: we all gain from splendid long evenings that allow more time for sports, walks, gardening etc, not to mention the very worthwhile energy savings, CO2 reductions and lower bills.

There's no reason why the adjustment has to be stuck at one hour, we just need to think outside the box !

Gerry | 31.03.19 - 1:46 p.m. | #

What I find odd is the way summertime starts so late. America switched to summertime the second Sunday in March, a far more sensible date. The end of the month is far too late. If summertime were to continue I would hope we might at least make the changeover date more appropriate.

dg writes: see here

ap | 31.03.19 - 2:30 p.m. | #

In 1947 we had four clock changes, with a period of Double Summer Time from April to August, in the middle of (ordinary) summer time (March to November). This was obviously thought too much of a good thing, as the power to do this was not used again...

Time throughout the UK only became uniform at 3 am (Irish Summer Time) on 1 October 1916 when Irish clocks had to be changed to 02:25:21 GMT.

Since Irish Independence time has generally been kept in step with the UK, except during the 1940s when Eire did not follow UK's adoption of Double Summer Time, meaning time changes at the border. In 1971, at the end of the 3 year Standard Time experiment, the Irish kept Irish Standard (Summer) Time as their normal legal time, with a change to Winter Time (i.e. GMT) in the appropriate season. All the nitty gritty here.

Jeremy GH | 31.03.19 - 3:21 p.m. | #

I suggest you have a referendum.

YDU | 31.03.19 - 3:27 p.m. | #

It strikes me that, given the length of daylight varies from between about 8 and 16 hours, we could have three time bands in the year:
Nov - Feb at GMT
Mar - Apr at GMT+1
May - Aug at GMT+2
Sep - Oct at GMT+1
Great for tourism and useful length of day.
Dreadful for doing anything internationallly!

Andrew-R | 31.03.19 - 4:10 p.m. | #

If we stick with BST we can call it "British Standard Time" to make it valid all year and be different to the foreigners, and I would just insist on going to work a bit later between November and February. If we stick with GMT then I could possibly make an effort to get up earlier in the summer, but nice as the late sunsets are it's actually useful for it to be properly dark by 11pm.

On shifting work hours, I know many would not choose to start and finish later, but many would, and this would help spread the peak travel hours and make transport more efficient. There is absolutely no reason for everyone to start work exactly at the same time; it's just silly bonkers-land. If it were to happen, I imagine that companies with rigid shift requirements would look at ways of being more flexible, or at least alter the hours during the shortest months.

At least we don't have the 'Twin Towns' scenario at Tweed Heads and Coolengatta in Australia, where the metropolitan area straddles Queensland and NSW, but only one shifts the clock each year. That really is Silly-bonkers-town, especially where people live on one side and kids go to school on the other. The bus timetables are amusing too.

NickW | Homepage | 31.03.19 - 4:30 p.m. | #

It's been one of the unsung benefits of the EU that we change to summer time and back to winter time on the same day.

Back in the early 1970s it was my habit to rip one of the back pages out of the ABC rail guide, or the BR timetable, that listed all the different days that European countries moved forwards and back.

Even in 1979 or 1980 they were different. My now-wife and I were having a weekend in Paris and got back to Gare du Nord to get the train to Charle de Gaulle airport to find we had spent the day not knowing the the clocks had gone back an hour, so we had an extra hour in Paris.

AlanBG | 31.03.19 - 4:33 p.m. | #

We had an experiment of permanent gmt+1 for two years when I was going to school. I hated the dark mornings, and would definitely want to keep things as they are now

Geoff Lumley | 31.03.19 - 5:24 p.m. | #

The end of BST would mean the end of weekday village cricket - very sad.

Fred Barker | 31.03.19 - 6:21 p.m. | #

Split the difference, GMT+0.5

jon | 31.03.19 - 11:32 p.m. | #

It's a bit of an exaggeration to say "forever", when the EU could decide to reverse the decision in decades to come, if it proves unpopular.

Ahbut | 31.03.19 - 11:33 p.m. | #

Many Time Zones elsewhere are rather irregular, with political factors having a say.

I recently was in KL Malaysia, which is GMT +8. I then flew EAST to Vietnam which is GMT +7! Indeed South Vietnam was at one stage +8 with the North +7, but when the country was reunified, they all became the +7 of the winning side...

Mikey C | 01.04.19 - 12:00 a.m. | #

I'm just imagining the fun and games that'll ensue if (say) Germany decides to stick to summer time and Poland chooses winter time.

NSue | 01.04.19 - 10:45 a.m. | #











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