please empty your brain below
I think that somewhere I still have the leaflet about a weekend closure of the District west of Whitechapel in 2008 which advised people to use the East London line to Canada Water instead. I am surpised that with such a thorough approach to checking the advice in the leaflets with the staff on the ground, no-one at the station claimed any vouchers by pointing out that the East London line was closed for 2 1/2 years.

SELondoner | 12.02.10 - 7:27 a.m. | #

I think I know who Audrey is and if it's the Audrey I think it is, Audrey means no harm.

There again, I could be completely wrong, and that won't be the first time.

zed | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 7:29 a.m. | #

Irony or sarcasm? What is the difference and should you also have a 'Sarcy' flag? Or have I missed some irony here?

Cat-Lover, Antipodes | 12.02.10 - 7:47 a.m. | #

While I am at it - I used the moniker 'Cat Lover - Antipodes' ONCE - usually if I post (not often) I am 'Antipodean'. But your new comments gizmo won't let me swap back now :(.

Antipodean, who also likes cats, but does not want that element of her personality to define her entire existence.

Cat-Lover, Antipodes | 12.02.10 - 7:50 a.m. | #

Of course, if the weather's fine, one could walk to Bank from Liverpool Street, thereby avoiding the Central line altogether. It takes more or less the same time in my experience.

Andrewh | 12.02.10 - 8:16 a.m. | #

I think "Audrey's" scariest thought is her motto....

If you think you can do someone else's job better than them, apply for the position; otherwise shut up.

Clearly not interested in debate or democracy then "Audrey". I bet many bosses wish they had more like "Audrey".


NiC | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 8:22 a.m. | #

@audrey,

i think i could do many jobs better than the people that current do them, but as a human i'm only usually available to work one full time job at any one time.

should I stick to just the one that i like best, or change up every few years and spread myself about all those different jobs?

just wondered, thanks.

[irony flag]

geofftech | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 8:59 a.m. | #

I think it's a good thing that TfL staff are reading dg, and I hope Audrey and Craig continue to comment...

Dan | 12.02.10 - 9:09 a.m. | #

DG - both the post yesterday and today are spot on. Sorry Audrey - my vote is with DG.

Now if you really want to see how hopeless the publicity people at tfl are, you need to dig out your driving licence and try to drive from your manor to south London after 9pm.
Blackwall tunnel closed virtually every night until the Olypmics... Might have been worth some publicity on the tfl site perhaps...? Nope. Of course, they don't want anyone to ask awkward questions about why it is suddenly unsafe to have contraflow in the newer tunnel - even though that system worked for years and years.

[ Oh and by the way - I can't change my name with this new comment thing either ]

Robert Speirs | 12.02.10 - 9:17 a.m. | #

Hello, Zed's quite right about who I am. And I didn't mean any harm. I don't work for LUL or any transport related industry. I've been taken to task enough times for complaining about things being done in a seemingly stupid way, only to have a perfectly sensible reason pointed out to me, that I felt it only fair to say what I said.
One morning, about two years ago, the BBC London TV Breakfast news blindly read out a statement from TfL's travel update service that said "The Bakerloo line is not stopping at Victoria." Technically correct, but not very helpful. I told a friend about it and she checked and double checked, and Lo! they had definitely published that odd bulletin. So she phoned them up, not to laugh, ridicule or deride, but so that they knew to take it down. (It took a while to convince them they had actually done it). It was that helpful attitude that's made me watch my step about moaning now. I still do it, of course; I'm only human.
DG, you are also helpful, giving good pointers to people who might want to make certain journeys, which I applaud. It was just the "Er, no" "they are stupid" tone which I read into it that I objected to.
And when I was infuriated by the stupidity and lack of insight shown by the managers in my last job, I DID apply for a job at their level. And I got it. And I did a better job IMHO than they did because I understood what it was like to work on the shop floor, but I could see how the pressure from different directions affected their thinking. It left me wondering, though, did they used to think the same as I? What did my underlings think of me and my work?

NiC. Debate and democracy are good things, in their place.

Audrey | 12.02.10 - 9:35 a.m. | #

PS. I wouldn't dream of telling you how to 'blog! :-P

Audrey | 12.02.10 - 9:36 a.m. | #

Anyone needing to change their name in the comments - simply clear the cookie that this site drops, then you can be anything you want...

Blue Witch | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 9:37 a.m. | #

And Audrey may be real, but, there are ways of saying things to make a point without being sarcastic and personally attacking.

Blue Witch | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 9:41 a.m. | #

hi , have been following this blog butnot made any comments because it was not necessary. enjoy this blog btw, so what i say now is not criticism or anything.
just want to make a point. which is this... bank is a really bad station to change, even in the best of times when there is no major works. there are long walks and v long escalators, (i think they must hold the record for the longest). but with major works going on it must be a horror. so tfl is right to warn tourists to avoid it. those warning leaflets are aimed at tourists. Commuters can thus use bank without the tourists getting in the way.
its like finding our own short cuts when we change lines, going against the flow, instead of following the signs. but it works only if no one else knows about it, or there will be chaos. so if u know of a good short cut, keep it to yourself.haha.

anthony | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 9:59 a.m. | #

Thanks Blue Witch. I'll have a look. Evil Cookies! Antipodean (who also, just for the record, likes cats, and kittens too).

Cat-Lover, Antipodes | 12.02.10 - 10:05 a.m. | #

What I totally object to is people like Audrey who say that if you can do better you do the job!

So as a 'customer' of something I'm not allowed to criticise unless I do the job myself? What sort of bollocks argument is that? I have a job, thank you!

But if something is not up to scratch, taking transport I've paid for it through my annual three zone (not cheap!) travelcard, then I am entitled to have a pop whether I want to work for them or not!

Rabbler | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 10:28 a.m. | #

Thanks for opening the debate Diamond Geezer. I would go further and question the whole management of Bank station because it's not just the useless, patronising information announcements, it's the way that entrances and exits get closed off for no good reason, and without explanation, then guarded by staff (surely wasting everyone's time). For instance, at the moment they are gating off the entrance from the Northern Line staircase to the DLR, but only on mornings (when lots of people heading east really need it). It can't be fun for the poor TfL worker and it's certainly no fun for the travelling public. My guess is that there aren't enough staff idea vouchers being handed round. If there were I am sure some of the good staff at Bank would have told their bosses how to run the place a bit better.

Londonophile | 12.02.10 - 10:47 a.m. | #

On a related, and previously blogged, subject in the 'DG's Transport Gripes' series, as he predicted:

"More than 32,000 commuters are using their Oyster cards incorrectly since its introduction on mainline trains, Transport for London (TfL) said.


Passengers are failing to touch in and out with their Oyster cards at the start and end of each journey, resulting in a higher fare.


TfL said in January passengers had overpaid about £500,000."


http:/
ews.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8512142.stm

Blue Witch | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 10:52 a.m. | #

I shall continue to use my car.

Debster | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 10:59 a.m. | #

I can't find much sympathy for people who don't swipe their Oyster card at the end of their journey, unless there is a faulty machine.

Mark Garth | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 11:55 a.m. | #

I'm with you all the way DG. I was scared off by the TfL propaganda about Bank until I realized how much worse the alternatives were. there's definitely a role for informed punters to share their wisdom, keep it up.

Chris | 12.02.10 - 12:23 p.m. | #

It's actually extremely easy to forget to swipe your Oyster at the end of your journey if there is no barrier to jog your memory. Don't know much about national rail stations in this regard, but all DLR stations have this "problem".

Tim | 12.02.10 - 2:52 p.m. | #

DG is the best blogger by far, but audrey has a point. As an ex railwayman I always welcome the fact that so many people take a very close interest in the rail industry. But it does hack me off when people who take a close interest, and genuinely believe that they have a better solution to a problem, then assume that the rail industry must be stupid because it has come to a different conclusion.

On the face of it, TfL's advice on Bank looks, at best, simplistic and, at worst, wrong in some ways. But given that TfL is one of the best managed railways in the world (really), it might be nice to know from them why they have chosen to follow a different path to the one DG might have advised.

logistical | 12.02.10 - 3:35 p.m. | #

@ Audrey, I think "Debate and democracy are good things, in their place." is even scarier than your initial pronouncement.

NiC | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 4:00 p.m. | #

@logistical:

Point taken up to a point. As another ex-railwayman I tend to agree with you. But... When I read a press release that I know is factually incorrect because someone hasn't check that the "facts" are true then I cannot take anything else said, suggested, advised or whatever, seriously. First get the facts correct, then try and explain and then advise. If you fail on the first point you will automatically fail on the others - with people like DG and myself at any rate.

Pedantic of Purley | 12.02.10 - 4:18 p.m. | #

Multiple points failure! ONOZ!

Audrey | 12.02.10 - 4:25 p.m. | #

The rub here seems to be about whether the message about Bank is too simple and needs to be more complex, giving more information about routes and times where travelling through is either ok or not ok.

There have been some interesting things written in today's blog and comments which illuminate the issues faced by this particular piece of communication.

ARGUMENTS FOR MORE INFORMATION:

DG: "We don't need to be spoonfed unhelpful over-generalised statements"

DG: "however hard TfL's staff are working to ensure that Bank is upgraded in a safe and timely way, their public information campaign remains a condescending pack of absurd generalisations targeted at gullible sheep."

ARGUMENT FOR A SIMPLIFIED MESSAGE

BBC NEWS: "More than 32,000 commuters are using their Oyster cards incorrectly since its introduction on mainline trains, Transport for London (TfL) said.

Passengers are failing to touch in and out with their Oyster cards at the start and end of each journey, resulting in a higher fare."

The Oyster mantra since its introduction? 'Always touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end'

That's a pretty simple message for 32,000 people to ignore, forget or misunderstand in the few weeks since Oyster has been accepted on National Rail.

Now put that into the context of effectively communicating to the masses the permutations at Bank, whilst avoiding the 'mega-nasty crush-related incident deep under the Square Mile'























Craig | 12.02.10 - 9:21 p.m. | #

Craig - I would explain why I think your argument is fundamentally flawed, but my sentences would be too complex for some people to understand.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 12.02.10 - 9:35 p.m. | #

To exaggerate, trains would be so much easier to run if there were no passengers to get in the way, and generally spoil their smooth operation... Commuters aren't stupid, they use the same station every day, and know when there are genuine congestion issues, and when some operator is after an easy life...

Mike C | 12.02.10 - 10:50 p.m. | #

"Craig - I would explain why I think your argument is fundamentally flawed, but my sentences would be too complex for some people to understand."

Exactly. So leave it at what's been said and let those who want to draw their own conclusions.

A bit like the current message at Bank. A headline message of 'disruption, stay away' is blunt enough to advise everyone, yet entice those interested/affected enough, such as yourself to find out more and can come to their own informed decision about how it affects them. Telling everyone all the nitty gritty effectively tells most people nothing. They're not that invested and switch off. Looking at another example of mass communciation to the travelling public - the collection bins by security checks at airports show how many people get caught with more than 100ml of liquid in their hand luggage. The message is widely known and publicised. Yet loads of people don't absorb the full details because they're simply not interested enough - yes, it applies to lippy, yes it applies to moisturiser and yes it applies to that bottle of water you bought in Boots 20 metres away and you haven't even opened yet.

Craig | 13.02.10 - 3:09 a.m. | #

Oh, and like you I also think that some of us have an IQ over 90 and am fairly confident that most here will have drawn their own conclusions about my comments on yesterday's post. The irony flag and today's highlighting of it could be seen by those possesed of a decent IQ as a bit of a condescending over-simplifiction. No?

Craig | 13.02.10 - 3:40 a.m. | #

Craig - The spelling mistake in your penultimate word perfectly describes what TfL is trying to do here: "simpli-fiction".



Yes, I bet many of the travelling public wander around the tube network like idiots. They don’t notice they’re being sent the long way through Kings Cross via the new northern ticket hall, because that keeps the quicker route emptier for the rest of us. They get out at Holborn and try to walk to Covent Garden, because a map told them to. And they keep away from Bank station because it’s a nightmare down there, even though it generally isn’t.



But I resent being told a lie in the expectation that if I'm intelligent enough I might deduce I've been misled. Tell us simply if you need to, TfL, but make sure it's the simple truth.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 13.02.10 - 6:54 a.m. | #

They lie as a matter of passenger management policy it seems. I'm not a very seasoned tube user but one journey I make fairly regularly is Victoria to Euston and I always get on right at the back. The platform announcements always say, move along the platform, there will be more space at the front of the train (once they even said 'I have had a message from Pimlico, the front of the next train is all but empty while the back is overflowing' or words to that effect) and it is, simply, a lie. Watch the train coming into the station, the front is half full, the middle packed and the back nearly empty. The thing is, is it a lie in a good cause to prevent dangerous platform overcrowding, and as such is it justified?

Sarah | Homepage | 13.02.10 - 8:57 a.m. | #

I'm guessing that they have to keep the messages as simple as possible for the majority of customers but also presume that a lot of people either won't read the warnings (or can't if they're tourists speaking another language) so there will be a number of people who'll go through any way - including people like the readers here (yes, I'm an appreciative reader!) who will either read about what's available here or figure it out themselves.

Obviously I'm not a writer of simple messages given the length of that sentence :)

Scott F | 13.02.10 - 10:36 a.m. | #

So the debate seems to come down to whether it's acceptable to lie to people that you consider stupid. I think that if one's skilled enough, one can find a way to communicate the truth clearly and simply, and still achieve the desired result. No one has the right to lie as a short cut to doing their job properly. DG is right to bring this kind of thing to our attention. I think he's paying TFL a compliment when he takes them to task - he's assuming they're capable of doing better next time.

misspiggy | 13.02.10 - 3:10 p.m. | #

My experience - and this is only my experience - with local authority press officers is that they tend to draft a press release for your project/announcement/thing… ask for comments/changes/fact checking… then ignore all of these and issue the press release (complete with spelling and grammatical errors that everyone has corrected)… no matter how wrong it is…

Therefore - my experience is that local authority press officers in london are not very good at their jobs…

tim... | 13.02.10 - 4:17 p.m. | #

I look forward to the tea lady post.

Amused | 14.02.10 - 3:12 p.m. | #

Is it possible that one of the problems being encountered by TfL is that whilst some of the interchanges at Bank are *possible*, if everyone tried to use the interchange routes, parts of the station would get dangerously overcrowded. Hence why they do not advertise too willingly that some changes can be made.

Mark L | 14.02.10 - 3:53 p.m. | #

This all brings the sage old saying in mind...."Walk a mile in my shoes". From what DG says, if we did walk a mile in the TFL shoes, we would be walking rather a long time. [sarcasm flag flutters in the wind]

Plummy Mummy | 14.02.10 - 6:57 p.m. | #

audrey and craig, you cant blame us. its in our blood to complain about things that could have done without the attention. we're british, after all..

hannah | 15.02.10 - 2:54 p.m. | #

The other day we were going home on the Piccadilly Line northbound from Piccadilly Circus. At Leicester Square the driver repeated his advice 3x to alight here for Covent Garden because of overcrowdnig.

Guess what, the platform at Covent Garden was completely empty.

cybergreg | 15.02.10 - 4:18 p.m. | #

Hey DG. I am v interested in what you said above about the entrance the Northern Line at KX now there is the new 'northern' ticket hall.

Have you blogged about it elsewhere? If so I can't find it yet using the search function on yr homepage.

Just curious because is it really possible to avoid that massive irritating detour they now send you on that seems to take you underground via Enfield? I think I found the way round the (old) shortcut once at the start of Jan in the snow but have never managed it since ;) Also, the little 3d maps they put up showing the alignment of the entrances and platforms have disappeared.

Cheers, J.

Jon | 17.02.10 - 11:28 p.m. | #











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