please empty your brain below
Are you only including cities with Protestant cathedrals? As Leeds has an Catholic cathedral but no Protestant, the only city this way. Most only have Protestant.

Jamie | 13.09.18 - 3:31 a.m. | #

Many people might respond to me saying that this doesn't count,. But I'll give it a go.

Having heard the request to upgrade a church to a cathedral, the Vatican approved the proposal, giving Preston in Lancashire *a* cathedral even if it's not perhaps an official one...

Liam Pennington | 13.09.18 - 4:16 a.m. | #

DG

Division 1 - Sung in - as in choir or congregation?

James Bunting | 13.09.18 - 5:47 a.m. | #

Southwell is not a city.

Wolf | 13.09.18 - 7:03 a.m. | #

Neither is Guildford. Poor show. They may have cathedra, but...

Wolf | 13.09.18 - 7:04 a.m. | #

What about St David's Cathedral in Pembrokeshire?

Frank F | 13.09.18 - 7:51 a.m. | #

Ah, England's cathedrals.. Sorry!

Frank F | 13.09.18 - 7:57 a.m. | #

Good to see the pedants are out in force today.
Wolf - the local football team are called Guildford City and that is good enough for me.

Of the Division 3 cathedrals both Exeter and Gloucester have very impressive interiors though I'm not sure whether that's enough by itself to justify the trip from London.

Personally I am somewhat ashamed that for me both Durham and Canterbury would be in Division 4.

cjw714 | 13.09.18 - 8:06 a.m. | #

Hurrah, you've now asked all the questions I was expecting. To answer...

a) Church of England cathedrals. I've only been to 5 of the 20 Roman Catholic cathedrals.

b) Sung in, as in choir.

c) Yes, I know they're not cities.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 13.09.18 - 8:11 a.m. | #

Ashamed to admit I had never heard of Southwell. Now I know where the apple trees in my garden originated.

Richard | 13.09.18 - 8:31 a.m. | #

Southwell is known as a `minster'. How is that different from a cathedral?

jack hopkins | 13.09.18 - 8:52 a.m. | #

Only 3 in Division 1 for me, and a strong regional lean with St Paul's, St Albans and Ely.

I have in-laws in Ripon and it's a lovely part of the world, well worth a trip!

Tom | 13.09.18 - 8:59 a.m. | #

I was taught (for what that’s worth) that one definition of a city is that it has a cathedral. Thus Southwell has been called the smallest city in England (and its minster is well worth a visit). There is also now a legal definition of a city, and they are created by the monarch. A minster usually has monastic origins — York is also a minster — but so have other cathedrals which aren’t known as minsters (Canterbury, for example). So I suspect it is just a matter of usage.

Lilyami | 13.09.18 - 9:50 a.m. | #

Originally, a minster was a monastic church of some importance. "Monastic" in this sense not necessarily meaning one of the established Orders, as the term pre-dates most of them. A suitable number of people devoted to the Faith would count.

After the first millennium, it became a general term for any significant church that wasn't already a cathedral. That being said, the terms are not exclusive and many minsters are also cathedrals. Especially if they're old enough. See York.

Chz | 13.09.18 - 9:57 a.m. | #

I once saw a competition that involved connecting cathedral cities and thought there's no point in entering that as it's so open to interpretation.

There's even an Association of English Cathedrals. They number two more than on dg's list. One being the Roman Catholic Westminster. The other being St George's at Windsor. I'm not sure how a chapel qualifies...

ap | 13.09.18 - 10:08 a.m. | #

intriguing DG, so you sing (or have sung) in a choir ... your talents are many

Caz | 13.09.18 - 10:08 a.m. | #

Another one here who was entirely ignorant of Southwell! So thanks for that. On the topic of Minsters, Cathedrals and Cities, in 2011 my then-local Croydon Parish Church was elevated to the status of Minster. Although clearly not of the same importance as York or Southwell, it has a rich religious history; and is far more deserving of its new title than Croydon would ever be of City status...

David F | 13.09.18 - 10:20 a.m. | #

How about 'All the Cathedrals', plus sing in them, and you won't need to visit the Isle of Wight either!

Still Anon | 13.09.18 - 10:34 a.m. | #

Div 1: I'd be thrown out of most choirs as sub-Billy Bragg, so no qualifiers here.

Div 1b: (cathedrals I've attended services in): St Pauls, Gloucester, Worcester, Oxford, St Albans, Derby

Div 2: Lichfield, Peterborough, Rochester, Salisbury, Winchester, York, Birmingham, Bristol, Bury St Edmunds, Canterbury, Chichester, Durham, Hereford, Lincoln, Liverpool, Norwich, Southwark, Wells, Ely, Guildford

Div 3: Sheffield, Bradford, Coventry, Leicester, Manchester, Portsmouth, Wakefield, Carlisle

Div 4: Chester, Exeter, Newcastle, Truro, Blackburn, Ripon, Southwell

Dominic H | 13.09.18 - 11:31 a.m. | #

Do go to Southwell. Train to Newark then bus. If you do go, I'll email with suggestions. Don't want to be verbose again.

Martin | 13.09.18 - 11:49 a.m. | #

I've sung Evensong in Ely, Lincoln and Norwich. Lincoln's a particular challenge as the choir is so wide, and the stalls so far apart from each other, that it's very difficult to keep in contact with the other side and the conductor.

Jonathan Wadman | 13.09.18 - 12:10 p.m. | #

As a former student in the city, I feel duty bound to suggest Plymouth Cathedral.

Paul | Homepage | 13.09.18 - 12:54 p.m. | #

Do you still sing with choirs - you've never mentioned it in your blog.

Here's my tally
Division 1: (sung Evensong in)
Chelmsford (2), Chichester (2), Ely, Guildford (3), Lincoln (14+), Portsmouth, Rochester, Southwark (4), St Paul's, Southwell, Winchester.

I agree with Jonathan Wadman's comments on Lincoln - antiphonal chant was invented for such situations.

Guildford is my least favourite - it looks like a power station, and being out of town you rarely get congregations of more than half a dozen. It is, however, the only one in which I have been the cantor.

Division 2a: attended concerts
Durham, Oxford, Truro

Division 2b visited as tourist
Carlisle, Coventry, Peterborough, Salisbury, St Albans, York

Division 3: cities visited (but not the cathedral)
Birmingham, Bristol (but have sung Mass in Clifton RC Cathedral), Bury St Edmunds, Canterbury, Chester, Exeter, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Norwich, Sheffield

Division 4: Unvisited
Blackburn, Bradford, Derby, Hereford, Leicester, Ripon, Gloucester, Lichfield, Wakefield, Wells, Worcester
(driven through or changed trains at all except Wells)

@Jamie
"Leeds has a Catholic cathedral but no Protestant, the only city this way"
By no means the only one - see e.g Brentwood, Nottingham, Salford and Westminster.

I Refuse To Tell You Who I Am | 13.09.18 - 1:18 p.m. | #

@Jamie
..... and Plymouth, as Paul has just noted.

But Hear Me Anyway | 13.09.18 - 1:19 p.m. | #

Beverley also has a splendid Minster and is well worth a visit.

dg writes: a) Agreed.
b) Been.
c) Not a cathedral.

David | 13.09.18 - 3:09 p.m. | #

WestMinster Abbey is another Minster that is not a cathedral.

| 13.09.18 - 3:53 p.m. | #

In 1966, I was part of a choir of local primary school children that sang what were then called "Negro spirituals" at Portsmouth Cathedral. I have no idea what the event was, but remember that time out of the classroom was a great treat for us all.

RosemaryT | 13.09.18 - 5:03 p.m. | #

Nottingham has a Catholic cathedral but not a Protestant one.

Radnor | 13.09.18 - 6:00 p.m. | #

a. 'A cathedral makes a city' was correct up the late 19th century, but the connection was then broken. It was Southwell which prompted the break, since at the time it got a cathedral it was not big enough to be even a borough, so there was no corporation to give the title of 'city' to.

b. Minsters - oh, gosh. In Saxon times it is said to have meant a church served by a body of priests who went out into the surrounding countryside to take services. In the early 20th century the name remained in regular use for only four churches - York Minster (also a cathedral), Beverley Minster and Wimborne Minster (not cathedrals), Southwell Minster (historically not a cathedral, but had become one) - though place names and street names preserved the memory of a wider use. However, in the later 20th century a practice grew up of declaring the main church of a notable place to be a minster - in some cases these are on the site of Saxon minsters, like Dewsbury Minster or London's very own Croydon Minster, but in other cases not.

Andrew M | 13.09.18 - 6:43 p.m. | #

Straying from the mainstream but an enticing place to see a tiny Minster is St Gregory Kirkdale, edge of York’s Moors. Magic. Saxon sundial too. Please forgive me getting further off main topic but it’s such a fab spot.

Herbof | 13.09.18 - 8:31 p.m. | #

I'd also recommend Southwell, but definitely only as one part of a wider-ranging day out.

Andrew Simpson | 13.09.18 - 10:11 p.m. | #

@Andrew M
Lincoln is officially a Minster as well, although most people call it a cathedral.

The Nameless One Returns | 13.09.18 - 10:18 p.m. | #











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