please empty your brain below

"But it does mean you can get to almost-Heathrow-Airport by paying a little less than going all the way."

Is that so? I thought the only people that applied to is season ticket holders?

I'm a PAYG user. For every tube journey that I might make (in z1/6) there are only two fare differentiators. Is it peak or off peak? Do I go through z1 or not?

My journey (from z2 via z1) to the Heathrow area costs the same (£3.10 off peak) whether I get off at Hatton Cross or any of the terminal stations.

dg writes: But at peak times it costs 40p more.
In the case of Hatton Cross I believe you can get to Heathrow only on a z5 ticket because its part of the free travel zone on the buses.
All credit to you DG. I've learned something new. (So my assertions in reply 1 are incorrect).
Seems my PAYG fares are always the same if I avoid z1, but if I go through z1 then the fare can change by zone. Never noticed that before.
Seems nice but a bit puzzling that fares have tended to simplify while technology and the world in general has tended to complexify.

Is the zonal system seen as an indispensable part of London connectivity / TfL policy?

Or is there any pressure to introduce adjustments (subtler than the Stratford/CanningTown Zone 2/3 bodge) to shift travel from overcrowded links to underused ones, or even to recognise that short journeys across contrived boundaries are unfairly priced compared with some longer journeys within one zone?
Earls Court is a boundary station so that you can make journeys like Gloucester Road/High Street Ken or Hammersmith/Fulham without passing through two zones. Similar to the reasoning for Willesden.

Moor Park similarly, for Rickmansworth/Watford type journeys

If Wikipedia's list of zone changes is complete, Greenwich and Lewisham have always been boundary stations.
(see list of changes at the bottom of this page)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_in_London_fare_zone_2
It's usually revenue related, so Finsbury Park Stn. was firmly in zone 2, but buses arriving at Wells Terrace (210, W2, W3 and W7) were in the outer zone, but everything on the Seven Sisters Road side was Inner Zone - but this might be why Archway was both zone 2 and 3 - it was served by the 4 and 210 which served the different zonal sides of Finsbury Park.

Same for Bromley-by-Bow - served by the 108 which was an outer zone route.

Obviously Elephant & Castle and Vauxhall are big bus interchanges - so bus passengers would incur financial penalties if these were in zone 1, as opposed to joint 1 and 2, as for Notting Hill and Earls Court - might simply let tube passengers change without going into another zone.
www.oyster-rail.org.uk/fares-guide shows the complexity introduced by multiple National Rail and TfL pricing zones interacting with vanilla London Underground zones (zonal map and single fares tabulated for subsets of zones 1-9 via TfL-Eus/TfL-LU/TfL-LSt/TfL-Ang/NR1/NR1-T/NR2/NR2-T)
It has been reported that Kennington will move to the 1/2 boundary when the Northern line extension opens, purely so that Battersea Power Station station can be in Z1 (despite being within OSI distance of two Z2 stations).
Would I be right in saying that the lettered zones also existed in Essex for a brief period before the Ongar line closed? I seem to recall that Epping was originally in zone B.
in zones 2 and 3, Greenwich and Lewisham certainly had been overlap stations since the start of zoning.

dg writes: Post updated, thanks.
oooh, an exciting quiz question too:

what mode of transport *no longer* appears on the London Connections map?
It's a shame Maryland is left as the only Stratford station not in 2/3.
I don't quite understand DG's point about Hampstead Heath. The point of an overlap station is that you can make single-zone journeys from it in either direction. This seems to me to apply whether it is an interchange station or not.

Mind you, this is complicated by the issue that fares are often unaffected by whether or not it is a single-zone journey, and the tendency (I'm not sure if it is a rule) for prices to be mainly based on (a) the highest numbered zone used and (b) visiting or not-visiting zone 1.
I also fail to understand still-anon's points about bus passengers (unless they are historic) - since bus travel is now completely unzoned.
@ Malcolm

TfL and British Rail wanted to encourage people to change at Vauxhall to take the pressure off Waterloo and Victoria

If Vauxhall were in Zone 1 (only), people changing from SWT to bus there (and there are a lot) would have to pay Zone 1 fares. If it were in Zone 2 (only), passengers using point to point train tickets and changing to the Victoria Line would have to pay a Zone 1 and 2 Tube fare. By putting it in both zones it became attractive to change at Vauxhall. So attractive that since the zoning was introduced the SWT station has gone from being a quiet (and rather desolate) backwater to one of the most overcrowded stations on the network.
Malcolm, Buses were zoned 1,2 (in common with the tube) then the remainder was zone 3. There were a few areas where there was an overlap. Strange to report Bow flyover was one, and route S2 then would accept 2 or 3 between flyover and through the loop through Bromley by Bow back to Bow flyover, and 25 accepted 2/3 either side of the flyover westbound, and 2 up to McDonalds stop (remember that?)eastbound. In 1990s a zone 4 was added so a short journey through the wrong area became more expensive than a single fare today (viz. 262 Beckton to Stratford)
@ wolf

Pedestrian tunnel and ferry? (At Woolwich.)

The Greenwich tunnel would also have been on here if it was a couple of years older, before the DLR extension to Lewisham opened.
I think the London Connections map you've linked is from 2000, not 1999. Tramlink is marked on it and the phone numbers at the bottom of the page show we're between the two phases of the Big Number Change (020 for London but National Rail still using an old Lo-Call number).

dg writes: The London Tube Map Archive says "late 1999". They have another map for "early 1999".
Then there are the cries to make e.g. Watford Junction part of the zonal system proper, rather than being an exceptional specially named case.
Crystal Palace was rezoned in 2003, effective Jan 2004.

dg writes: Updated, thanks.

Incidentally, 2004 was the year when Crossrail was approved, and we were told that trains will be running in 2013 - apparently (not - ho, ho, ho...)!
@Graham : I believe Debden, Theydon Bois and Epping went from being outside the zones to Zone 6 in 1997 i.e. 3 years after the Ongar line closed.
re Graham and Paul. Yes. 6 originally finished at Loughton and, iirc, Epping to Ongar was zone 9.

It is a funny area out in that NE corner. Before the buses became single-zonal it was the one bit of the map where the outer-edge Z6 boundary was different for that of the outer-edge Z4 bus boundary, due to historical precedents re routes and garages in that area, and moving local authority and postal boundaries.

Caused all manner of ticketing hiccups, especially for school travel.
Uncle Audrey,

The problem with Watford Junction is that TfL don't set the fares there - this is down to London Midland, I believe. So it had to be introduced into the zonal system in a way that meant that London Midland didn't lose revenue. So basically all you could do was give it its own fares zone (W) and charge the same fare as before.
Hampstead Heath started out in zone 2, and Willesden Junction started out in zones 2/3, but both were rezoned (maybe in the mid to late 80s, or maybe after rail privatisation in the mid-90s) to zone 3 only, out of clearly financial considerations - before later reverting back to the original designations after TfL was set up.

Malcolm, the point about Hampstead Heath was, that when it was in zone 3, there were no zone 3-only journeys that could be made from the station, as the neighbouring stations on either side were and are both zone-2 only.
I know that! And I'm against bringing into a proper zone because of the political history of transport in that are. All of this "something for nothing" rhetoric from the borough council makes me sick - comparisons to Epping's locations without acknowledgement of the reasons WHY Epping is in zone 6 (they pay for it!).
Having Hoxton in zone 1/2 is not entirely pointless. I remember travelling from H'bury & Islington to Liverpool Street using this station, which saved me a bit of cash.
Oh, you're probably right. Having it in 1/2 instead of 2, doesn't make any difference.
I can see why zones are used, but they don't half mess up the tube map..
Thanks Dominic for the Hampstead Heath explanation.

Maybe it's too obvious, but I would like to see it spelled out somewhere explicitly that the meaning of a station being in two zones (e.g. 2/3) is that you will be charged the fare to/from a zone 2 station or a zone 3 station whichever is cheaper. (And which is cheaper obviously depends on the rest of your journey details).

That is what happens, and that is what is supposed to happen, but it could theoretically be otherwise. I prefer explicit rules over "everyone knows" notions.
When the DLR Lewisham extension was being planned I went to a meeting (1987 or 88 I'm fairly sure) in the Lewisham shopping centre about the project. The idea then was that the tunnel under the river would be in a separate zone -- 99, I think the man said -- to help recoup the cost of construction. Never happened, fortunately.
Malcolm,

The map does I think convey the meaning of a boundary zone station quite well. If say you approach Hendon Central from Colindale you are pretty clearly staying in Zone 4. It's only when trying to call it Zone 3/4 and explain it in words that any uncertainty comes up. It's unfortunate by the way that DG's post has a version (not current I think) of the map with Hampstead Heath shown incorrectly.

dg writes: It's from the 1999 map.

Rich,

Short journeys across contrived boundaries are often only charged as a single zone (try looking up Camden Town to the nearest Zone 1 stations for instance on the TfL website). It's only Travelcards that stick rigidly to the zone of a station; zonal prices for single fares are a general guide which then allows some flexibility.

Some boundary stations exist because they are so close to the next station that putting them in different zones would mean most people got off one stop earlier and walked, causing pointless annoyance without actually bringing in much extra revenue (and putting them just in the other zone would increase the cost of journeys from the other side). Timbo raised another and there are many more. The zones are a balancing act and there is no one correct answer to which zone each station should be in.
Ralph: indeed.

I wonder if the confusion (if there is any) arises from the contrast between a journey from West Brompton to Barons Court - where you must change at a station which is (also) in zone 1, yet the journey is actually zone2 only, and a journey from Haggerston to Shadwell, where you do not change at all, and yet must pay a via-zone-1 fare. The first journey seems to have more involvement with zone 1 than the second, yet costs less.

Or maybe no-one but me sees this as odd, in which case I'm sorry that I cluttered up the discussion.
Re the plan (subsequently abandoned) for a special premium to use the dlr under the Thames. We've got that same problem lurking.... I believe tfl and the owners of Heathrow haven't yet agreed the charging regime for Crossrail/Elizabeth for journeys to the airport - the complication being that the airport owns the tunnels and tracks into the airport.
View of obscure scans go crazy on Flickr. Check DG Blog. Ah yes, they've been linked to a post. :-)
I used to live between Kew Gardens Station (Underground and Silverlink) and North Sheen (Railway only). If I stayed on the train from Feltham to North Sheen I was charged Z6-Z3, If I changed at Richmond (Z5) I was only charged for Z6-Z4 because Kew is a boundary whereas North Sheen isn't, even though Kew Gardens is closer to central London. I never understood that ...
It is very important to note Mr Ayres remark about cross boundary "short hop" fares. A number of these exist - especially from zone 2 just across into Zone 1. There were other oddities in the past but some have vanished as the farescale has been "flattened" for some non Z1 journeys. As someone who used to work in the small team creating the ticketing data for LU's ticketing system we had to know all these special fares and ensure they were always maintained because people noticed if they were ever incorrect!!

It is also correct to say that Willesden Junction and Hampstead Heath were mucked around with to "fatten" up Silverlink's revenue base for privatisation. Note the only consideration was to extract more cash from the poor saps who *had* to use the dire North London Lines routes rather than actually make the service attractive. Note the contrast with TfL's tenure.

I will check my copy of the "Fares Fair" leaflet to see if the Z12 stations were in place then. If they weren't then I expect that they were all created when "Just the Ticket" came into being in 83. This was the GLC and LT's reaction to Law Lords judgement once they'd had time to deal with the immediate aftermath. In terms of BR zoning then this will almost certainly have coincided with the introduction of Capitalcard as that was what brought zonal seasons to the mainline rail network.
Fares Fair did not introduce the boundary Z1/2 stations although the extent of the old West End and City zones gave a strong hint. It was 22/5/83 (Just the Ticket fares changes and introduction of the Travelcard) that formally introduced the initial set of boundary stations.
Hoxton's status would have made more sense if Whitechapel had been rezoned as Z1/2 upon the ELL reopening IMHO, but I understand that would make journeys from Central London to the Shoreditch area considerably cheaper.
Can someone explain the 1981 map's statement that a return trip was always £1.60 but only £1 from Heathrow?

Why was it cheaper from Heathrow and why only that station?
@John -- travellers would tend to make only one journey in a day. The £1 return to Heathrow was possibly a concession to people working there, who would use return journeys.
I thought Shoreditch's placement in Zone 1 was to prevent a significant abstraction of revenue (and regulate demand) from people who would switch from London Bridge. For historical reasons, it's still charged as if it's in Zone 2 for local ELL journeys if paying by smartcard.

Not so sure about Hoxton's dual zoning though.
When the travelcard was introduced back in 1983,South Wimbledon was in zone 3A,& Morden was in zone 3B.If you had a travelcard valid in zone 3A,you could use it anywhere in bus fare zone 3.Money saving passengers from the St Helier area would change buses from a 154,157,& 164 to a 80 or a 93 at Morden Station,to travel to South Wimbledon,thus saving themselves a few quid.










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