please empty your brain below
Yesterday I saw a double-decker roll by with only a dozen passengers, and had a thought that London really is ridiculously well-served for buses – but is it really viable to be moving around empty buses for large chunks of the day? Making people wait a minute or two more at off-peak times is just a way of redressing the balance.

martin | 02.09.17 - 7:06 a.m. | #

There comes a point when that extra 'average' 60 or 90 seconds wait per journey when added to the usual wait becomes the proverbial 'straw breaking back' of making buses an attractive mode of transport. There's a risk it leads to a spiral of declining passengers and more "better matching how often buses run with demand" (as happened between 1970s and 1990s).
Another unwelcome development this week has been the withdrawal from TfL's website of the quadrant bus maps (albeit they had not been updated for over a year). There are now neither printed nor electronic bus maps available for the bus network.
Not sure how TfL envisage attracting new passengers with these bizarre policies.

Roger French | 02.09.17 - 7:51 a.m. | #

Route 269 got won award tender by Arriva and will be drop to every 12 minutes in January next year but was surprised that TfL go ahead with doing drop to every 12 minutes with Stagecoach at this month but it only more than four months away. I guess something to do with running times and A20 road sometime get blocked back up!
I heard TB is having problem with bus drivers to be available for routes since won 146/336 and R7 exentend.

Mark Wilkinson | 02.09.17 - 8:04 a.m. | #

Cutting n29 and n91 effects north london severely. Maybe all the night activity is further east now ? Has the night tube vic and picc been instrumental in this ? Doesn't seem much has been made public on these changes.

I'm too old to make it to pub closing these days so the night time economy is a mystery to me.....

Chicker | 02.09.17 - 8:07 a.m. | #

As opposed to an outright cost saving, it may well be that running times have increased, so rather than invest more money they are just spreading the existing resource a little more thinly. If this is the case expect it to happen across the network.

Al | 02.09.17 - 8:33 a.m. | #

The contract for the 14 was only renewed in November 2016, along with new buses, the new schedule needs nine fewer buses, same with the 63 which now requires seven fewer buses - although most of the hybrids were swapped for diesels, so the 93 along Putney High Street could comply with the low emissions zone.

I assume that there are compensation payments.

Still anon | 02.09.17 - 8:37 a.m. | #

@chicker - yes, the N91 dropping to a half-hourly service seems to be particularly unkind, especially on Sunday-Thursday when there's no night Piccadilly.

dg writes: The nightbus cuts are on Friday/Saturday nights. No changes on other days of the week.

Bob L-S | 02.09.17 - 9:27 a.m. | #

I live in a large village about 8 miles from Winchester and 11 from Southampton
We get 1 bus an hour to each and they end at about 6.30pm.
And each takes 1 hour to go that short distance.

Joho | 02.09.17 - 11:00 a.m. | #

I live 50 miles from the centre of London and my nearest bus stop is 1.8 miles away and has 3 buses a day.

The bus that used to come within half a mile twice a day was cut completely 7 months ago.

You Londoners have it soooo good.

| 02.09.17 - 11:14 a.m. | #

I wonder whether frequencies, which itself isn't space occupation, can be "contracted". If it's actually a description of the interval between departures, then such a contraction would mean an *increase* in frequency.

Please freely advise if common English usage differs from this understanding of mine, thanks.

Patrickov | 02.09.17 - 11:45 a.m. | #

It is worth noting that the daytime 73 route has had its frequency cut when trimmed back from Victoria.

The 488 is also getting an evening and Sunday cut to 3 buses per hour which is pretty poor for Hackney / Tower Hamlets. It's even worse given the unique links it provides through the Hackney Downs area. The daytime Sunday cut strikes me as a real mistake.

I was in Central London overnight recently. The numbers using weekend night buses was vastly lower than in previous years. Some of the difference may be accounted for by it being August holiday season with no students around. However I was shocked at the number of empty / almost empty buses compared to 2 years ago. I can see why TfL are making cuts but it is a huge disappointment after so many years of progress.

I am pleased DG has highlighted these cuts. It's about time people were told what was going on and the glaring gap that is cuts in Outer, as well as Central, London despite Mayoral promises to the contrary. We are in a disastrous position now with declining patronage year on year, a potential £100m revenue shortfall this year and further cuts to bus operation of 6m km being introduced this year to save £25m. Some one needs to get a grip.

PC | 02.09.17 - 12:18 p.m. | #

@patrickov, There are at least two different meanings for contract, to summaries in very simple terms:
1 - to reduce in size or frequency
2 - a legal agreement to provide certain services

This may be the source of your confusion.

Ray | 02.09.17 - 12:22 p.m. | #

I live on the n91 route and can see it from my lounge window and have been amazed how much usage has dropped on fri and sat nights since night tube has been introduced. It's rarely got more than 10 people on it by hornsey and often just a handful. Thursday and Sundays are still busy though. It serves all the northern pic line stations so I'm not surprised it's quieter.

Flare | 02.09.17 - 2:42 p.m. | #

Patrickov frequency will relate to 1/ the time interval. E.g. 60 min interval is one bus per hour, 30 min interval is 2 buses per hour. The time interval increases and the freqency decreases. Does that explain your confusion?

Messiah | 02.09.17 - 6:11 p.m. | #

The frequency of the Central Line replacement buses has also been reduced. Waited nearly 30 mins Saturday late afternoon at South Woodford and no staff to say whats going on either. They've also changed the routes so it requires 3 replacement buses to go from Barkingside to Leyton.

Tony | 02.09.17 - 9:25 p.m. | #

According to TfL's latest list of bus service changes, on route 488 "Monday to Sunday daytime buses will run every 15 minutes (previously every 12 minutes)."

However according to the new timetable, and as commented above, buses now only run every 20 minutes on Sundays.

Which would make TfL's latest list of bus service changes untruthful :(

diamond geezer | Homepage | 02.09.17 - 11:28 p.m. | #

It would be interesting if there has been any analysis of passengers moving from buses to cabs. I don't use them for ethical reasons, but my friends all say that if you're in a group it's almost as cheap as taking a bus for short distances.

Theo | 03.09.17 - 9:17 a.m. | #

@ Theo - like you I don't use cabs or Uber but it is very clear that people have swapped modes. I've spoken to people waiting for a bus who said they'd normally just take an Uber. For what was a straight forward journey by bus I was surprised anyone would contemplate a car based service.

Night bus usage in and around Shoreditch was way down 2 years ago before the Night Tube appeared. The traffic is also horrific in that area as so many private hire vehicles are milling around / parked up waiting for trade. I saw far more cars in the West End overnight when I was there a few weeks back compared to previous years. When cars outnumber night buses on Oxford St you know something has gone wrong.

TfL have also acknowledged that "new technology" services such as Uber and Citymapper are changing the way people decide to travel and on what mode. For part of the market the price differential seems not to matter very much. It's more about near instant travel and a door to door service. TfL is always going to struggle to compete on that basis - especially if it is cutting back bus services thus increasing waiting times.

PC | 03.09.17 - 9:58 a.m. | #

This has been happening more and more over the past few years. There has been no effort on the part of TfL to make buses more attractive. The problems are:

*Slow journey times caused by congestion - the bus is not given priority on the roads. The mindset of the car's supremacy must be broken down so that London can be kept moving
*Slow journey times caused by excessive running time - the buses stop to regulate far too often extending journey times.
*Slow journeys caused by cycles in the bus lanes or bus lanes being removed to make way for cycle lanes; it needs to be acknowledged that the bus is more suitable for the majority of journeys in the capital.

There also needs to be the removal of the fares-freeze; along with the hopper fare the finances of TfL are suffering. If action is not taken, TfL will not have the funds necessary to keep us moving.

Not Diamond Geezer | 03.09.17 - 11:30 a.m. | #

London's population is growing (over 8m now) and we provide fewer buses - this is suppressing demand in an era of rising costs and low wages. When "Fares Fair" started in the 1980s, buses were massively increased and fares cut. The result served suppressed demand caused by high fares and infrequent services.

When the GLA reclaimed London's Buses, large service increases again, without cheaper fares but with ticketing improvements. Same again, buses serving suppressed demand. How long before this cycle repeats?

Cutting Night Buses paralleling Underground routes is a con - fares are not compatible, only ticketing. Low wage earners use buses because it's cheaper than the tube. Not everyone goes to an Underground station for a destination - look at the gaps on the Central Line between Liverpool Street - Bethnal Green - Mile End - Stratford (allowing for where the N8 goes): all the places in between are residential. Vulnerable travellers now have a poor choice - pay more or wait longer.

Buses now run for operator convenience and to save TfL money, not for passengers. To the end of July this year, 52 buses a day have been removed from London's streets.

If one bus is poorly used, remember it's on an integrated schedule. The opposite direction may have been packed. You have to look at the need to get the bus back to pick up its next journey...

Joel | 03.09.17 - 6:28 p.m. | #

the 488 - you used to to be able to get up into north London from Greenwich by changing from the 108 at Bronmly by Bow onto the 488. Because of the silly changes to the 108 you can't do that any more, in fact you can't do anything,

Mary Mills (@maryorelse) | 03.09.17 - 7:28 p.m. | #

With all due respect, Central London has too many buses going through it - and has had too many for some time. Traffic jams in the centre are often rather red and rather double-deck.

In Outer London, however, a combination of lower frequencies and a lack of any meaningful bus priority measures means that while buses are helpful in getting one to a tube/rail station to go to central London, they are about as useful as a chocolate teapot for local and orbital journeys. Reducing their frequencies further (e.g. 222) means they will become even more chocolatey...

straphan | 04.09.17 - 12:28 p.m. | #

Great that you've noticed the growth of app-taxi passengers. MyTaxi, Gett and Taxiapp all make taxis more widely accessible.
I'd guess bus usage may also be reduced by people becoming app-minicab passengers.

Sven Ellis | 04.09.17 - 2:51 p.m. | #

@ Mary Mills - you can still change between the 108 and 488 at Bow Church without too much difficulty. OK not at the same stop but still possible. Frequency cuts to the 488 don't help though.

@ Straphah - not any more in parts of Central London. The cuts are ridiculous. The tube is not wholly accessible so cuts to the bus network and more reliance on changing routes potentially raises Equality issues. I've yet to see any Equality Impact Assessment published for any of the changes or even in relation to whatever "policy" is responsible for these never ending cuts.

PC | 04.09.17 - 4:14 p.m. | #











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