please empty your brain below
|
|
More worryingly is is not the turbulent 70s that are the model - we have to guard against the 1930s and 1940s.
Andrew | 23.06.16 - 7:22 a.m. | #
|
What is forgotten is that it is the Euro that has created much of the mess, having Greece and Germany share the same currency is still bonkers.
Most of Eastern Europe had no overseas territories, so there is no history of cultural mixing, in fact many of these countries have a history of 'exporting' their population.
As far as the UK is concerned, it still comes down to the cost of living, the fact that the Tories think spiraling house prices are a good thing, shows just how clueless they are, Labour are equally useless, 'the market' does what it always does - charge the highest prices it can get away with, there are many people who are utterly sick of millionaires telling them how wonderful Europe is - while they struggle to make ends meet.
| 23.06.16 - 7:59 a.m. | #
|
I think of Edward Heath as a PM of the similar manner to John Major, both fairly quite and intelligent men.
Ted Heath loved sailing and John Major is a cricket fan and when in office as PM would often take time out to go to Lords or the Oval for a test match.
John Major has recently been campaigning to stay in Europe.
I hope the rain in London this morning will stop as London is supposed to have a high percentage of "Remain In" supporters and wet weather may stop them going out to vote. I think most of the country apart from the South East is dry, I would hate to think that the result of UK's future depended on the weather.
John | 23.06.16 - 8:09 a.m. | #
|
Anonymous 0759, said "....there are many people who are utterly sick of millionaires telling them how wonderful Europe is..." Boris Johnson,a millionaire, has not been saying that.
Our cost of living will go up if we leave Europe, even many leave supporters admit that.
John | 23.06.16 - 8:18 a.m. | #
|
|
Another brilliantly timed piece by DG. How to get there is hidden in the link 'the garden'. I've been meaning to visit the town itself since reading the historical novel 'Sarum' by Edward Rutherford which includes the story behind the building of the cathedral.
Dave | 23.06.16 - 8:20 a.m. | #
|
|
I fear tomorrow Daily Mail readers may sweep the country in an anti-intellectual cultural revolution, burning all experts and indeed anyone who expresses any opinion that originates above the shoulders.
Gerald | Homepage | 23.06.16 - 8:48 a.m. | #
|
|
I spent over 20 years as a UK civil servant working on UK/EU policy - spending a vast amount of time visiting EU institutions and in the EU conference room, if only people knew how hard we fought over those years to gain even the smallest policy outcome that supported the UK position then the vote today is obvious - LEAVE
Nicks | 23.06.16 - 8:59 a.m. | #
|
You've added a thoughtful and appropriate context to this day which, in terms of it's ability to change all our futures, feels to me like the most significant for quite some time.
It is clear that significant forethought and planning goes into these posts - for which your readers are grateful.
Frank F | 23.06.16 - 9:03 a.m. | #
|
|
I echo the comments of Frank F .
Cornish Monkey | 23.06.16 - 9:18 a.m. | #
|
|
So beautifully put in those last couple of paragraphs. I was so pleased to see dg come off the fence yesterday. I've voted this morning and I have never felt a vote was so important. For me the campaigns focusing on economic self interest and immigration only served to obscure the real and enduring issues, which are summed up so well here.
Sarah | Homepage | 23.06.16 - 9:45 a.m. | #
|
@Nicks - who's to say that the "UK position" that you were fighting for was necessarily the right one? I don't automatically side with the UK view in a UK vs rest-of-the-EU debate just because I happen to be British.
Unfortunately for far too many people that's exactly what happens - it's always a case of them vs us, the foreigners vs the Brits. This most divisive of referendum campaigns has only made this worse.
Leo | 23.06.16 - 9:47 a.m. | #
|
|
'Guardian' readers are as identifiable as DM readers, I see.
B | 23.06.16 - 9:50 a.m. | #
|
The European model presented by Ted Heath is a very, very different beast to the one we are being asked to decide upon today. Harold Wilson gave us a referendum over EEC membership in 1975 after Heath took us in in '73 (no choice). But we weren't given a say over the ERM in 1990, or Maastricht in 1992/9, or the Lisbon Treaty in 2007/9. Or Nice or Amsterdam.
Very different indeed. Democracy? You're having a laugh.
Uncle Audrey | 23.06.16 - 10:38 a.m. | #
|
|
A lovely, calm post to counter balance the frenetic media of the outside world.
Cornish Cockney | 23.06.16 - 11:08 a.m. | #
|
But I can't wait to see what Friday's post will be.
In the circumstances, surely even DG will refrain from telling us yet more about London's transport system?
Temp | 23.06.16 - 11:15 a.m. | #
|
|
Yes, but Ted Heath didn't try to drive around the M25, get a doctors appointment, get a school place for his child, or struggle to earn enough to live on as the UK population is 65 million.
Madge | 23.06.16 - 11:24 a.m. | #
|
|
That list which Madge gives of things which Ted Heath didn't do would also apply to the various millionaires who are so loudly telling us what to do. But the list does echo the thought, repeated in many cartoons, that Leave (and especially Farage) are cynically evoking images of the 1950s as a sort of golden age.
Malcolm | 23.06.16 - 11:39 a.m. | #
|
|
When PMs were wise men with hinterlands, not professional political spivs on the make.
David | 23.06.16 - 12:11 p.m. | #
|
Madge, what has the government been doing with all the extra taxes and economic growth that the EU immigrants have been providing over the past decades then?
You are voting Leave because you are upset with your own government? It makes no sense!
It's the same uneducated argument over and over the whole campaign.
| 23.06.16 - 12:25 p.m. | #
|
Having Greece and Germany share the same currency is not 'bonkers'. I don't agree with that outers myth. London and Cleethorpes or New York and Arkansas have done the same for years.
The problem is caused by not having the same economic policy and regulations. So it's more integration than less that's needed for the Eurozone. If Greece wants to sun itself in Germany's wealth, and it does, then it must regulate itself, pay taxes like the Germans do.
I personally believe that in or out, the U.K. (or what's left of it) will have to join a power (economic)block at some time in the next fifty years. The power blocks are consolidating and I see no end to that.
So yes, whether it be Dollar, Renminbi or Euro, the U.K. will be using one or the other currencies in sixty years time.
p.s. Being in the E.U. means that U.K. is well placed for the economic stresses that are sure to come. The current debate in the U.K. is such a distraction from the real problems of the world. But like the shots at Sarajevo, it might/could lead to something much more serious.
IsarSteve | 23.06.16 - 12:34 p.m. | #
|
Just found this, from BoJo
http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/02/america-would-never-join-anything-like-the-eu-yet-they-urge-us-to-stay/
The conclusion
"Put your money where your mouth is, Mr Kerry. Unite your own continent into a superstate first before you tell us to do the same."
"How would Americans like it if we argued that it is in our interests that the United States should forthwith be united into a vast customs union governed by a trans-national, unelected civil service."
Funny, I thought that's exactly what the United States (note the plural) of America are: and I don't see even Trump campaigning for Texas to leave the Union (Texit)
timbo | 23.06.16 - 2:17 p.m. | #
|
|
@Uncle Audrey: it is called a representative democracy. We elect MPs to spend their time deliberating and making decisions for us. As a body, the elected UK government, supported by the elected UK legislature, decided to approve entry to he ERM (and taking us out again), Maastricht, Lisbon, etc.
Andrew | 23.06.16 - 7:49 p.m. | #
|
|
@Andrew. Which is exactly my point. When they are devolving decision making ability to a third party, then that third party has received NO MANDATE AT ALL from the British people.
Uncle Audrey | 23.06.16 - 8:20 p.m. | #
|
No human led Britain into Europe, it has been part of Europe for a few million years.
@timbo,
Does anybody seriously think Canada should join the USA? How can New Zealand, a small set of islands with half the population of London 4 hours away from the nearest big city, survive on its own without joining Australia? So why should the UK automatically be part of the USE? (Not saying that it would be a bad thing.)
JQ | 23.06.16 - 10:45 p.m. | #
|
Canada joining the USA, or New Zealand joining Australia, would be perfectly reasonable events if the citizens and governments involved wanted it. But so would them remaining as they are.
It seems odd to me that Leavers are so opposed to even a bit of power being allowed to Brussels, yet the same people (generally) were recently opposed to Scots "taking back control". London is only half the distance away from Brussels than Edinburgh is from London.
Malcolm | 23.06.16 - 11:29 p.m. | #
|
@JQ
I think you've missed the point. The United States is already a union, with many powers delegated from the individual states to the Federal Government, a common currency, no tariff boundaries, freedom of movement of citizens between states and all the rest. So the premise in the original article that Americans would find the such things anathema seems to be without foundation. No-one, from Texas to Alaska, seems to have a problem with that. The most recent state to join was an offshore archipelago (Hawaii).
The admission of further states (Mexico, Canada, Cuba?) would no doubt be no less contentious than Romania or Turkey joining the EU
timbo | 24.06.16 - 11:35 a.m. | #
|
I'd blame Juncker and all those EU officials for this result. They behave more or less like Chinese Communist Party, who look for (super-)national unity at the expense of individual self-respect.
I thought Cameron outwitted them all, looks like I am horribly mistaken.
Patrickov | 24.06.16 - 1:43 p.m. | #
|
Top (and obviously timely) tip. Stopped off today on way back from Glastonbury to Sussex on rare child free day. Only £6 without the guided tour (couldn't have gone on a Tuesday).
What a fantastic place. I must've spent almost 2 hours there. Even the little museum of 70's (ish) world leaders and history in the front garden was fascinating.
The staff were all fantastic, happy to chat about all sorts including contemporary politics and of course Europe. The charming chap at the entrance even offered to look after my motorcycle jacket and rucksack.
Didn't have time left for more than a brief look at the cathedral and it's resident peregrine falcon family. Will definitely have to go back.
Thanks.
Lorenzo | 27.06.16 - 11:24 p.m. | #
|
Heath rented the house from the church at first, then used right-to-buy legislation to force them to sell to him as the sitting tenant, much against their wishes as they depended on the rental income to maintain the cathedral.
He then failed to leave an endowment to support the house. The trustees tried to sell it, but were prevented by the courts. It's future is unclear at best.
What a mess!
Joe McCaffrey | 29.11.16 - 4:02 p.m. | #
|
|
|
TridentScan v2.10.0 | Privacy Policy
|