please empty your brain below
Victoria Line trains are of a similar age to the London Overground stock. I don’t suppose there’s a chance that this technology will be available on the Victoria Line as well?

Dan Browne | 18.10.17 - 7:18 a.m. | #

Most travellers are regulars at peak times and are creatures of habit. The most useful carriage being the one closest to the optimum platform exit on departure.

As seats are at a premium at these times then standing in a less crowded carriage is not that enticing. I remain sceptical that this extra information will make a measurable impact on dwell times.

Ken | 18.10.17 - 7:18 a.m. | #

Don't like the 'sixth carriage' at the front, perhaps an arrow symbol instead, or just an arrow at the top of each 'train column'?

Why do northbound and southbound trains go the direction, would it be better to have them on separate displays?

Still anon | 18.10.17 - 7:21 a.m. | #

Perhaps they should have looked at what proportion of the population are red/green colourblind...

Around 1 in 12 men and 1 in 100 women. *deep sigh*

Blue Witch | Homepage | 18.10.17 - 7:26 a.m. | #

The sensors to measure the load in pressure in the air springs is a feature of the train, used in the control of the brakes. Unless someone has fitted an additional sensor, your wording is slightly misleading.

What the system really needs to do is to predict the capacity in the train once thosd intending to alight have done so. As far as the airbags are concerned, the train might arrive full and leave full. During the platform dwell time, the air spring signals are unreliable.

For example, Jubilee EB trains arrive at Waterloo full and leave full in the morning peak!

This will work best on typical commuter lines which mostly pick up en route. It will be challenging at places such as East Croydon where a lot of people get off

100andthirty | 18.10.17 - 7:43 a.m. | #

@BlueWitch: what is the best solution to the reg/green colour blindness issue that you identify? Would three other colours be better, or would you recommend a pattern, say dots or stripes for red or green? With a key, perhaps? And would that work just as well for the 90%+ of people who don't have a problem with the current display? What about people with other visual impairments? Perhaps there is a need for a Braille or large print or spoken version too?

Accessibility is a good thing, of course, and there is no excuse for failing to provide it if reasonable adaptations can be designed in or added without undue delay or cost. But there are situations where it seems to stop implementation of a "quick and dirty" solution that works for everyone else.

Andrew | 18.10.17 - 8:15 a.m. | #

Did Orinoco get its name from the Enya music in hold on TfL’s phone line?

dg quotes: "Orinoco was selected from more than 200 suggestions from employees. Orinoco is not only a song by Enya, it is also a river. The employee that put the name forward suggested that the app would help improve the flow of information between control and the frontline."

Sprout Eater | 18.10.17 - 8:19 a.m. | #

With the help of an online simulator, here's what the screens look like to those with the two most common forms of colour blindness.


Deuteranope


Protanope

The contrast's poor in the first instance, but clear in the second.

The 'people' symbol within the carriage is still distinctive, however (green=1, amber=2, red=3).

diamond geezer | Homepage | 18.10.17 - 8:36 a.m. | #

Hmm not sure this is working as they describe and it is in fact a prediction.

I’m standing on a packed train to Dalston Junction 10 minutes away from Shoreditch. Yet it’s showing as completely green on the mobile site.

I know the train empties out at Shoreditch so it’s more of a forecast than a read of the current data no?

Paul | 18.10.17 - 8:41 a.m. | #

Even more helpful would be if they lit up the platform in some way to indicate the stopping point of carriages more likely to be emptier.

Wheels | 18.10.17 - 8:59 a.m. | #

Regarding colour blindness, the 1 in 12 men stat refers to men *affected* by colour blindness - for most of those, it is only partial colour blindiness. Full colour blindness is very rare.

I have red/green partial colour blindness but I can distinguish these colours fine. The display includes a symbol as well as the colour, so that is enough - anymore would just complicate it too much. It is only advisory, not mission critical, so don't worry about it too much.

Jimbo | 18.10.17 - 9:16 a.m. | #

These innovations are great. Virgin Trains been doing similar at Euston, although there it's showing levels of reservations in each carriage.

They'd be especially useful for longer trains, like the 12 carriage epics that Southern run.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 18.10.17 - 9:22 a.m. | #

Hmmm, so next time at Shoreditch am I going to sit where it suggests the train is emptiest, or am I going to, if necessary, squeeze in as close as I can to where I need to be to be close to the exit at my target station? To try and avoid having to make my way through the crowd of slowly moving people either entering or leaving the platform at my target station? Let me think...

Loz | 18.10.17 - 9:29 a.m. | #

Hmm.... since DG has documented at length the difficulty they have in predicting when the next train will arrive, or even where it is going to, seems a bit ambitious to me.
The chief unpredictability is how many people get off on arrival.

scrumpy | 18.10.17 - 9:38 a.m. | #

This is welcome and exciting news!

When the signalling is finally sorted when I am even more old and grey this will be fantastic information.

Mark | 18.10.17 - 9:41 a.m. | #

This is fantastic, particularly on a complicated line with lots of branches, where some trains from less popular branches are likely to be emptier.

It's likely that there's some sort of calibration in the background, since as you quite rightly point out, some trains can't have left yet. Something along the lines of:

- By Shoreditch it has averaged 300 people in the last few weeks.
- This train is currently at Haggerston with 200 people
- This train at Haggerston currently has 150 people on it.
- Therefore by Shoreditch, we can calibrate our expected 300 down to 225.

Or something like that.

We do these quick and dirty calibrations all the time in rail planning, particularly if you need to calibrate count data taken at a specific point with profile of ons and offs along the course of a train route.

Another added benefit is that it encourages passengers not to get the first train when trains are bunched up. We all know that on the tube, if you see the countdown screen say 5 mins, then 6 mins, the first train will be rammo and the second one empty. But most customers don't intuitively realise that; this sort of technology can encourage passengers to take the later trains.

NB: Something similar already happens on Bus Countdown, which is why you can get predicted times for buses that haven't started yet.

Planner | 18.10.17 - 9:48 a.m. | #

Either the LO is up the wall or there is an information problem. Currently (09:50) the page at the end of the link shows the platform numbers but no trains

Rogmi | Homepage | 18.10.17 - 9:51 a.m. | #

My wife and I encountered this system recently when we travelled on Thamelink for the first time. Must be useful on a longer journey with them if the carriage you are in is packed but others further down or up the train are emptier. Thameslink also show you which toilets are engaged or not working with their system.

Tones | 18.10.17 - 10:10 a.m. | #

Sensors that weigh the train by monitoring the air pressure in the suspension are not new - I recall reading they were fitted to the Underground's "C" stock, introduced in 1969. The original purpose, I understand, was to control the brakes by compensating for differences in the weight of the train so that a consistent braking rate is applied for a given position of the driver's brake handle).
What is new is its use to inform passengers in realtime of the conditions on board.

timbo | 18.10.17 - 10:18 a.m. | #

I was going to suggest this for bus routes, particularly where a choice of bus is available and, but then remembered that few bother to take notice of the "seating is available on the upper deck" and the "Please move down inside the bus" announcements!

dg writes: It's been tried.

Cornish Cockney | 18.10.17 - 10:44 a.m. | #

Ah, I overlooked the little one-two-three person symbols. They pop out in the yellowscale simulations that DG has added above. That appears to help with the colour blindness issue. But perhaps BlueWitch has an even better idea?

Andrew | 18.10.17 - 10:53 a.m. | #

I use Thameslink a lot, especially off peak. I find that a lot of people don't even register the on - board loading displays. This might have something to do with the system cycling through "CCTV in use on this train", the operational situation on London Underground, where the toilets are and if they are in use, all in addition to the car loading.
A platform display sounds like a very good idea as one can then choose a good spot to wait. I know the loading patterns so can stand where I can always get a lightly loaded car but, wow! you should see how the centre of the train gets rammed (plus luggage) at Luton Airport Parkway. And nobody moves to an empty area.

Baldrick | 18.10.17 - 11:59 a.m. | #

@ Cornish Cockney - as DG says it's been trialled on buses then abandoned and I assume is now on the pile of "dead due to no funding / business case" TfL IT projects.

Loading up the webpage this morning - nothing doing on that so one wonders if the stn display is functional or not.

I can sort of see the logic behind this trial but I am sceptical about the data for all the reasons listed. It seems like one of those "bright ideas" on paper that doesn't quite hold up in reality.

PC | 18.10.17 - 12:32 p.m. | #

The display at Shoreditch High Street station is not currently working. (I checked on my way from the opticians to the library)

As this is a staff information resource rolled out for public use, the additional cost must be minimal - one screen per station.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 18.10.17 - 12:50 p.m. | #

@Andrew Bowden From my limited experience, Virgin's reservation levels is across all stations that Virgin call at.

DG Fan | 18.10.17 - 1:11 p.m. | #

@DG Fan - I haven't noticed it at Stockport yet (my nearest Virgin station.) Unless it's only on some screens.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 18.10.17 - 1:29 p.m. | #

"Orinoco is not only a song by Enya, it is also a river."

Yeah yeah but Orinoco is also a WOMBLE.
That is a far more likely explanation for the name.

♩ ♪ ♫ ♬
"Underground, overground wombling free..." ♫ ♬ ♩ ♪

drD | Homepage | 18.10.17 - 1:34 p.m. | #

I have a feeling I have seen this feature very recently on a South Western Railways train too. Anyone else?

dg shouts: THIS IS THE 100,000TH COMMENT ON DIAMOND GEEZER

(OK, technically it's the 100,000th comment in the Tridentscan database, but that'll do me)

Congratulations!

David | 18.10.17 - 2:33 p.m. | #

Congratulations DG! I wonder how many words that adds up to? 🤔🤔

Jo W | 18.10.17 - 3:26 p.m. | #

If I do this in time, my comment will be palindromic!

Chris | 18.10.17 - 3:28 p.m. | #

Oh no! Jo, you've done me!

Chris | 18.10.17 - 3:29 p.m. | #

100,000 is just a number. odd how certain numbers are seen more "important/significant" than others.

dg shouts: THIS IS THE 100,004TH COMMENT ON DIAMOND GEEZER

Grumpy Anon | 18.10.17 - 4:32 p.m. | #

For God's sake, the name of the Enya song is "Orinoco FLOW"!! Not just plain "Orinoco"!

And....

>>"....although on Thameslink the displays are inside the carriages"

!!!

Surely if you find yourself standing in a carriage that is absolutely rammed, you don't need a display within the carriage to tell you that it is absolutely rammed.

Haven't travelled on Thameslink for a while, so maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Richard M | 18.10.17 - 4:57 p.m. | #

The control room for the Victoria line already displays this kind of information, so as to keep station staff aware of loadings. It wouldn't be difficult to display it publicly, but Tfl is strapped for cash following the Mayor's fare freeze.

Keith | 18.10.17 - 10:00 p.m. | #

@Richard M

The Thameslink displays aren't for when it;s absolutely rammed, but for when you find yourself in a carriage where all the seats are taken but there's still room to move, so you know whether moving forwards or backwards along the train for the best chance to find seats.

solar penguin | 18.10.17 - 10:37 p.m. | #

There are places, e.g. where half an Overground train decamps onto the Victoria line at Highbury & Islington, where you can hear the air suspension bags hissing and wheezing as they adjust to the rapid change in loading.

The displays on Thameslink are certainly useful. I wonder if there might be a sensor in the WCs that says "give it 5 minutes" and counts down - that would be sophistication...

NickW | Homepage | 18.10.17 - 11:09 p.m. | #

@ David 233pm - the new class 707 trains being introduced on some SWR routes are very similar to the Thameslink trains so will have the same loading displays inside. I'd guess you've been on one of those new trains.

PC | 19.10.17 - 1:12 p.m. | #

Wow. By hook or crook, I'll be 100,000th on your blog. Little me.

Is there a prize? Perhaps one of the crumbs from your rejected-PR-freebie table :-)

David | 19.10.17 - 2:10 p.m. | #

There should at least be an signed photo of Bus Stop M on offer!

Cornish Cockney | 19.10.17 - 8:19 p.m. | #

Went and counted people... doesn't really work...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27I_aYBTZMM

Geofftech | Homepage | 20.10.17 - 12:00 a.m. | #

"Comment 100,000" appears to actually be "Comment 107,687"* according to its URL. I'm obviously missing something.

* And that's *within* the /dg/ subdirectory.

dg writes: I've deleted thousands of spam comments over the years.

Mark Boulton | Homepage | 23.10.17 - 4:31 p.m. | #











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