please empty your brain below
We have no money to build the extension but we will continue to raise local expectations by getting into the minutiae of talking about what the stations will be called.

Cynic | 15.10.19 - 7:12 a.m. | #

Which will come first, Sutton tram extension or Bakerloo extension? Scrap HS2 and we could have both now.

Ken | 15.10.19 - 7:17 a.m. | #

Empty tunnel from Elephant & Castle to St. George's Circus? Extend it north to Waterloo, Aldwych, Holborn.

Max Roberts | 15.10.19 - 7:26 a.m. | #

It can be used for filming when Aldwych ceases to be available (because of the upgrade at Holborn)

timbo | 15.10.19 - 7:44 a.m. | #

IF it goes ahead then they might do it all in one hit, as it would be more expensive to buy extra trains for the 'Hayes extension', also it frees up 4 paths an hour into London Bridge for something else.

Still Anon | 15.10.19 - 8:05 a.m. | #

The report is somewhat economical with the truth regarding the need to realign tunnels at Elephant & Castle.

The problem is that when this route was suggested around 15 years ago nobody safeguarded the route. Subsequently Elephant Park has been built with a forest of deep piles. Whereas you can mitigate against the occasional pile or foundation in the way of the route (as done at Bank) by spreading the load, it is quite impractical to tunnel through lots of them. Hence the need to swing north or south of Elephant Park.

At £5-8bn for a short extension for tube size and length trains, Crossrail at £20bn+ seems an absolute bargain in comparison.

Pedantic of Purley | 15.10.19 - 8:09 a.m. | #

The poor London supermarket. They are such prime real estate for building stations. When I worked at crossrail 2 it almost seemed the route was a dot-to-dot of supermarkets through SW and NE London.

Flare | 15.10.19 - 9:01 a.m. | #

Really interesting, I hadn't realised how many supermarkets and (ex) retail sheds would bite the dust as a result!

Mikey C | 15.10.19 - 10:19 a.m. | #

I would humbly suggest that one of the stations be named after Chaucer- as the Old Kent Road was famous as a route to Canterbury in his time. If l thought lt would ever be accepted l would suggest Wat Tyler as the second - as he led the people of Kent up this road in the first great rebellion against feudalism.

Le Ver | 15.10.19 - 10:31 a.m. | #

Ken - hah! You must know the way things are going that if HS2 is cancelled there's absolutely no way that money will be seen by any public transport project. Right now my assumption is it'll have to be spent on fixing the Brexit mess.

you don't tend to get tube stations named after people, and I don't think we should really start... Besides the fact that the names are geographically useless!

Muzer | 15.10.19 - 11:26 a.m. | #

re station naming: One thing Old Kent Road has going for it is brand equity; it's one of the properties on the Monopoly board (albeit one of the cheaper ones).

TheLupineOne | 15.10.19 - 12:09 p.m. | #

Now retired to Lewisham, so I doubt if I will see the benefits in my lifetime, but it will benefit future generations. Went to a previous exhibition and the figures being banded about were approx £3 billion for the Elephant to Lewisham phase (not that bad - 2 stations and a short stretch of track to Battersea is coming in at nearly a billion) and £5 billion incl Hayes/Beck.

It's a great idea, as since the demise of the trams the Old Kent Road and much of the south London area is a train desert and has had to rely on the bus. And with more traffic on the road they now move at a much slower rate. So this would be a boon to the identified OKR opportunity area.

Yes, great to extend on to Hayes but they'll be no support from Bromley and their Council Tax paying residents, as conversion won't be that easy. The East London line for conversion to Overground was closed for over 2 years! Bus replacement service? Nah, they won't wear it; just can't imagine this bit ever happening.

'N ware's da munnee cummin from?

The wish is to make Lewisham a transport hub, a bit like Stratford, but you'd need to completely rebuild the station - again at what cost.

One step at a time - just looking forward to when Crossrail opens!

Dave | 15.10.19 - 12:24 p.m. | #

"The Hayes line is entirely self-contained" - except that it is not as simple as that. Whilst not currently in passenger use there is a facility at Beckenham Junction that allows trains on the mainline from the South into Victoria to divert via Nunhead if required. By allowing the Bakerloo to take over this would reduce the flexibility of the overall network. It would also prevent trains from London that currently terminate at Beckenham Junction in peak hours from doing so. TfL's aspirations to turn South London Orange would become more constrained.

James Bunting | 15.10.19 - 12:35 p.m. | #

Yes to going to Lewisham, no to going further in such a small train. By the time the Hayes extension is considered I think we'll know it needs Crossrail sized trains and Thameslink is too fragile to take it over.

toby | 15.10.19 - 12:55 p.m. | #

I thought that the existing Bakerloo line was more or less at capacity at peak times. How would the additional traffic be accommodated?

rogerbutton65 | Homepage | 15.10.19 - 1:11 p.m. | #

A common argument for the extension is that extra traffic comes from the other end of the line than the current ones, and they probably won' interfere much beyond, say, Oxford Circus.

Patrickov | 15.10.19 - 1:28 p.m. | #

Not an expert on train use, but here goes.
In a nutshell it's the peak flows, eg. not many passengers from north London in the morning going beyond Waterloo. So trains running on to Lewisham at this time fairly empty. The bulk of morning passengers starting from Lewisham probably wouldn't be going beyond the west end. And it still leaves the central area for plenty of tourists during the day. I'm sure the other peak cross london underground lines run on a similar principle.

Dave | 15.10.19 - 1:33 p.m. | #

The first Old Kent Road station would plug the "Walworth Gap" in rail provision identified by DG some years back. I'm surprised that the name "Walworth" hasn't been considered.

Naming either station "Old Kent Road" is a recipe for a mess as the road is so long that no one station can serve it all and so many a visitor will find themselves walking endlessly to their destination.

Unfortunately I can't see a decent name for the second station - "Asylum" is too generic and likely to weaken the area's reputation, and "Toys Rnt Us" will be ancient history even if the station were to open on schedule.

Tim Roll-Pickering | 15.10.19 - 2:11 p.m. | #

The signalling and stock on the Bakerloo is currently somewhere between very old and ancient. The line currently manages 24 trains per hour tops - and trains with transverse seating, too! Change the trains and signalling, and you suddenly have 30 or more trains per hour, all of which have a higher capacity than existing stock.

As far as the second station name: North Peckham? Willowbrook (after the adjacent estate)?

straphan | 15.10.19 - 2:53 p.m. | #

Its been said before, but I’ll say it again. Bakerloo line is brown, therefore the station name has to be Old Kent Road. QED.

Marc | 15.10.19 - 3:35 p.m. | #

One other thing to point out: it's all well and good to provide step-free access to the stations on the Hayes branch (most of them are step-free to platform already). But look at the map: the Bakerloo Line has no step-free stations south of Willesden Junction! The only exceptions are same-direction transfers to the Victoria line at Oxford Circus and Jubilee Line at Baker Street.

straphan | 15.10.19 - 5:40 p.m. | #

James Bunting - Beckenham Junction is indeed connected to the Hayes line, but the Nunhead connection you're referring to is further up the line towards Bromley South at Shortlands. Although the connecting track is rarely used by Hayes line trains, the platform at Beckenham Junction (platform 4) is used by Southeastern during peak hours for their Beckenham Junction to Blackfriars service (and for the occasional terminating train when there are problems elsewhere). (You could divert from Beckenham Junction > New Beckenham > Lewisham > Nunhead but I'm not aware of that ever being used and that seems a longer way than going via Shortlands > Catford > Nunhead if coming from the Bromley South direction.)

Adrian | 15.10.19 - 6:26 p.m. | #

I find it a bit rich for TFL to be talking about new lines when the current infrastructure is struggling. The Piccadilly line is awful , I've been travelling on the same 1973 stock my whole adult life. When are the new trains and signalling going to happen?

dg writes: Factsheet 16.

chicker | 15.10.19 - 6:35 p.m. | #

Adrian - The link I mentioned has been used as I have myself been diverted that way, once following an incident in Sydenham Tunnel and another occasion that I never did discover the exact cause of. The reason for doing this rather than using the Catford Loop was a matter of capacity, the amount of track space and time used was less, causing less delay to other services. The point I was making was that, whilst not an every day occurrence, making it part of the Bakerloo reduces the flexibility of the network over quite a wide area. TfL's aspirations to Turn South London Orange by taking over the South Eastern network would be hindered by the reduction of options this takeover would cause.

James Bunting | 15.10.19 - 10:03 p.m. | #

I think scrapping a national infrastructure project benefitting millions for a suburban tram is a little London centric, Ken.

Ian | 16.10.19 - 7:23 a.m. | #

I'm trying to figure out how straightening out a slow bendy bit at the southern end could allow faster trains while there is also a slow bendy bit around Paddington.

kev | 16.10.19 - 7:48 a.m. | #

Someone is doing work at the Toys R Us site as I came past this morning. The building must be tricky to let with less than 5 years of useful life so I'm wondering what's happening.

Also Aldi have a planning application in to knock down their supermarket and rebuild with flats on top. The whole area is starting to look a bit supermarket free (A smallish Iceland and Asda seem to be the only ones left)

Starting to look a bit like TFL might miss out on some of the developers money unless they get a move on.

PeterI | 16.10.19 - 10:01 a.m. | #

Looks to me like the mapmaker thought it's a DLR extension.

NickW | 16.10.19 - 1:51 p.m. | #











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