please empty your brain below
Were the Super Off-Peak Day Return tickets available over the counter?

dg writes: Yes, I bought one.

I had an issue with SW Trains recently where I was unable to buy one at the ticket office (having seen them available on the web), so had to stump up for the full-price off-peak ticket.

shirokazan | 06.07.17 - 7:10 a.m. | #

It is not unusual for a journey by a more circuitous route to cost more than the quicker direct one. Illogical, but not unusual.

See Waterloo to Strawberry Hill (fare is higher via Kingston than via Richmond)
or London to Lincoln (higher fare applies via Retford, for the dubious privilege of a 25 mile detour on a Pacer)

timbo | 06.07.17 - 7:24 a.m. | #

I've had ticketing issues at Stratford International before. I think it was a train to Luton via St Pancras International.

Ticket gates and staff wouldn't let me on, despite tickets and conditions being met per Trainline. Had to buy a single and claim a refund later.

Madison | 06.07.17 - 7:38 a.m. | #

Cheaper option?

Andrew | 06.07.17 - 7:41 a.m. | #

1h24m to cover around 75 miles, the depressing thing is that there seems to be no ambition to improve speeds on the slow bits - just an acceptance of the status quo.

Still anon | 06.07.17 - 7:44 a.m. | #

They need the money to fund new and exciting ways to delay their trains.

EonLeader | 06.07.17 - 8:07 a.m. | #

When I read this, I really come to like our German fare associations (Verkehrsverbünde). All buses, trams, metros, local trains, even some ferries have the same fare system. No weird peak/off-peak tickets (except for some monthly tickets, that are cheaper when bought in the 0900 version) or anything the like. Sadly, these fares are not valid on IC (Intercity) and ICE (Intercity-Express), but we have good regional services as well, so yeah.

Simon Hellinger | 06.07.17 - 8:08 a.m. | #

Part of an explanation might be that fares from Stratford to Canterbury are already higher than fares to Margate via Herne Bay.

Stratford to Canterbury West, Day Return
Anytime 39.30 / Off-Peak 36.40 / Super Off-Peak 31.60

Joachim | 06.07.17 - 8:10 a.m. | #

@Still anon

Yes, Google maps says 1 hr 27 from Bow to Margate Station by road leaving now. No need to queue for tickets (or choose them) or get to the station either or wait for the train.

I like trains, don't always have access to a car, and even if I do often take the train any rate, but can see that this sort of offer might well be unattractive to most people with cars.

Try rocking up at Victoria station on a sunny Saturday or Sunday and the ticket queues are enough to put you off for quite a while. I try to make sure I always have an unused return portion, but clearly not everyone is aware of this potential pit fall.

Lorenzo | 06.07.17 - 8:16 a.m. | #

Who runs the ticket office? I assume Southeastern but I can't find it anywhere as apparently LCR/NR operate the station.

dg writes: Yup, Southeastern.

Kirk | 06.07.17 - 8:19 a.m. | #

If the 08.00 to Margate was the same price as the 10.00, then dg would have taken the 08.00 to have more time in Margate, so would other people. That's why peak time tickets are more expensive.

coffin dodger | 06.07.17 - 8:38 a.m. | #

>And where will it all end?

It'll end with an Amazon style pricing algorithm that calculates the highest possible fare that can be squeezed out of you just as you are about to board the train and deducts it from your smartphone.

new anon | 06.07.17 - 8:44 a.m. | #

There is no other conclusion: train fares in UK are a byzantine mess. There are 25 different fares from my local station to London excluding seasons and 1st class. Bonkers.

For the specific route DG chose, there is no point in peak restrictions St Pancras to Margate. I accept, though, that evening restrictions, and, in the other direction, morning restrictions make sense,

100andthirty | 06.07.17 - 8:51 a.m. | #

The invention of the 'via Herne Bay' routed tickets was in Jan 2015. Before this juncture there were not any off-peak 'High Speed' trains between Faversham and Margate. In return for reducing the service to London Victoria (by transferring 1 of the 2tph to High Speed), they reduced the High Speed price premium.

Wolf | 06.07.17 - 8:54 a.m. | #

There's another layer of reduction when you add in the network card which gives a third off travel starting after 1000

dg writes: ... or my Gold Card, which gives a third off travel starting after 0930

Jk | 06.07.17 - 9:48 a.m. | #

It is not just trains. To return by air from Frankfurt to London City cost me £120 less via Zurich. Bonus is Zurich has the world's best smokers lounge.

scrumpy | 06.07.17 - 9:53 a.m. | #

It's confusion like this and the whole range of different fares for different days and times that puts a lot of people off rail travel in this country.

I whole heartedly agree with Simon; on a recent visit to Germany it was so easy to just turn up, buy a ticket at a machine and go, the only worry as he says was whether it was before or after 09:00. OK when you're on holiday you look at things through rose tinted glasses, but even beforehand the websites are so easy to use to plan ahead.

Tim | 06.07.17 - 10:00 a.m. | #

"Where will be end?"

Probably much like it started; those with the means will be able to travel and those without won't.

Even the cheapest fares are a fortune for some of the poorest in society.

So while some may moan about how complicated the fares structure is, others won't be going on a day-trip to the sea-side, let alone further afield.

Grumpy Anon | 06.07.17 - 10:42 a.m. | #

No fair comparing prices from Stratford Int and Victoria as they are not the same place. If you want to go from Stratford via Victoria you have to add in a tube fare (and the time taken) - or however many buses it takes to get from Bromley-by-Bow to the other Bromley.

Contrariwise, if you are in central London you should be comparing Victoria with prices from St Pancras Int

dg writes: Fares from St Pancras are generally only about 10p more expensive than fares from Stratford.

timbo | 06.07.17 - 10:43 a.m. | #

This is exactly the sort of thing that makes us never even attempt to use trains. Few people like feeling they are being conned.

Plus, when more than one person is travelling (always for us) it's much cheaper, easier, more convenient, and less tiring, to go by car.

Unless you live in a city, or very large town with good public transport in, there is also the cost of getting to the train in the first place, and paying to park.

No-one will ever get car usage down in this country until fare systems are fair, and public transport, in all areas, improves greatly.

Once you have a car, you have paid your fixed costs so you might as well use it as much as you can.

Blue Witch | Homepage | 06.07.17 - 11:21 a.m. | #

Of course if you'd been willing to stick to specific trains and booked by 6pm the day before, you could have done the entire return journey for £10 with no extra railcard discounts available.

https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/destinations-and-offers/hidden-gems/summer-hidden-gems

And if you want to see even more fare options from Stratford,or any other stationhave a play with http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=SFA&dest=MAR

ap | 06.07.17 - 11:23 a.m. | #

I believe that before HS1, the journey time from Victoria was around 90 minutes, then they used HS1 as an excuse to add extra stops.

The depressing thing is the total lack of vision in anything, for example HS2 finishes at Euston.

Why?

Everyone south of Euston is lumbered with the same crappy journey on the tube, why not pay for a few miles of tunnel (a small proportion of the overall cost) and finish at Waterloo, or Croydon, or Gatwick.

Still anon | 06.07.17 - 11:47 a.m. | #

I love trains and I love train travel - but I hardly ever use them ... they cost so much compared to my car and you always have the hassle of getting to the start point and what to do at the other end to get to where you want to be

shame, but that's how it is

Caz | 06.07.17 - 12:14 p.m. | #

Straightforward fares are one of the many things that I miss about the Japanese train system. Each journey between two stations has a single basic fare; if you travel on an express or a bullet train you pay the appropriate surcharge; and if you travel on the Green Car (first class equivalent) on the bullet train you pay a further surcharge. But there's no difference in fares by time or route unless you travel via a different rail operator, and no cheaper advance fares (aka last-minute price gouging). And also no fines if you get on without a ticket (unless you're obviously trying to cheat, such as by using two season tickets, one for a short journey at each end of your commute). You can either pay an inspector on board, or use a special Fare Adjustment Machine at your destination. It's all so much more comprehensible and civilized.

Claire in Cambridge | 06.07.17 - 12:20 p.m. | #

Good stuff, but have you thought why dg is getting a Southeastern train from north London?
Fares on Southeastern were allowed to rise faster than other franchises because of the high speed trains and yet it doesn't serve south east London!
The commuters on one of the worst franchises in the country are paying for it though.

Chrs | 06.07.17 - 1:32 p.m. | #

London to Birmingham is a good example of a crazy number of tickets, courtesy of having three different operators (Chiltern, London Midland and Virgin) serving the route.

Between them, they set 162 fares, most of which are different tiers of Advance tickets ranging in price from £5.50 (Chiltern Standard) to £110.00 (Virgin 1st Class).

Barry S | 06.07.17 - 2:36 p.m. | #

Crazy.
I don't drive so am held ransom to the fares or when my husband can drive.

We currently have an electric car which is practically paying us to use it - often ending the journey with more charge than at the beginning of it!

Cornish Cockney | 06.07.17 - 4:48 p.m. | #

Maybe a desire for train fares to be the same regardless of when you travel is part of this nostalgia for the fifties. But we don't even expect it on air fares. Minute-to-minute variation of petrol prices is imminent. Food won't be far behind.

Standard advice on budgeting will be useless when the price of everything is unknown until you decide to buy it.

Malcolm | 06.07.17 - 6:11 p.m. | #

The extra stops that "still anon" mentions, added to the non-high-speed trains after HS1 opened, were a perfectly genuine attempt to spread the benefits of the high speed line wider than those places directly served. The good burgers of Meopham and the like might not know they are getting an HS1 benefit, but they are.

"High speed" trains to Margate via Herne Bay use less of the high-speed line (London to Gravesend only) than those via Ashford. The fact that they take exactly the same time is because the route via Herne Bay is shorter, and trundling through Canterbury dissipates much of the HS benefit anyway. The operator has to pay the HS-line owner a premium (probably per kilometre) for using the high speed line.

Malcolm | 06.07.17 - 9:59 p.m. | #

Once you factor in more than one person travelling even with railcards the train prices start to look every unattractive compared to driving with a full car.

Andrew Jarman | 07.07.17 - 6:48 a.m. | #

DG posed some questions.

The complication started with BR when it started to apply airline style segmented pricing. It worsened post privatisation as "innovation" was unleashed coupled with advances in computer technology.

Successive governments have shifted the cost burden to the farepayer thus worsening the pressure to "extract" money from passengers. Every so often the government says it will "do something" and then completely fails to achieve simplification.

It won't end for as long as we insist on gouging so much money out of farepayers and there is no centrally laid down policy of fares. The other big problem is that despite the fares complication many trains are very busy. Simplifying fares may unleash demand that the system cannot cope with. Also the public generally equate "simpler" with "cheaper" and you can't reform the system with cheaper fares for everyone and earn the same revenue and pay premia to government. The whole approach would need structural and financial reform and that's not going to happen.

All the TOCs, barring TfL Rail and London Overground, play these games to some extent. The thing I find most astonishing in DG's article is how ridiculously expensive it is just to have a day out in Kent. £40 return!!! No wonder I've never used that service other than a ride on the day it opened to Ebbsfleet.

PC | 07.07.17 - 9:04 a.m. | #

Is the "via Herne Bay" restriction so that one must take the short journey as opposed to the longer route on the circular high-speed services?

frediculous_biggs | 07.07.17 - 12:10 p.m. | #

This!
Trying to unpick best value for money rail travel is ridiculous

louise | 09.07.17 - 11:56 a.m. | #

Have recently needed to go by rail to Rugby I was pleasantly surprised to get fares around £6 advance singles, both London Midland and a Virgin, specific trains yes but pretty good value. Warwickshire is a nice part of the country as well.

Roger | 11.07.17 - 2:57 p.m. | #

I just booked to go to Margate on Monday using one of the £10 promotional fares that @ap mentions.
I also thought I was being clever by using my Freedom Pass, and only booking from Bromley South.
Somehow I missed any option to nominate a station from which to collect said ticket, and now have to catch an earlier train from Victoria to collect it at BMS!

Bob L-S | 12.07.17 - 6:04 p.m. | #











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