please empty your brain below
It would be less innovative but it sounds like zebra crossings would meet their objectives quite well.

Brian Donaldson | 25.02.22 - 7:22 a.m. | #

Agreed, although I guess part of the idea is that drivers are more likely to pay attention to a red light than they are to a zebra crossing.

mushroomcounter | 25.02.22 - 7:49 a.m. | #

I am not a natural at 'rithmetic but hopefully I've pressed the right calculator buttons and 7000 vehicles in 12 hours is less than two vehicles each minute. I'd take my chances with a gap in traffic. Public authority press releases can so often be rather fictional.

dg writes: 10 vehicles each minute.

Andrew | Homepage | 25.02.22 - 7:50 a.m. | #

Another reason why the green person authority is preferable to zebra crossings is that it's easier for traffic planners to model. I'm struggling to think of any further reasons tbh

Ed | 25.02.22 - 8:28 a.m. | #

The crossing between London Bridge station atrium and the North entrance to Guys Hospital works well. But there are very few bikes and cars on that road.

mikeS | 25.02.22 - 8:28 a.m. | #

Interesting to see the pervasive but flawed speed measure "85% of prevailing speed" being used in this context

The 85% measure is commonly used by traffic planners worldwide for determining the speed limit that will be posted, leading to hostile environments for pedestrians, cyclists and also impacting general environment. Look up criticism on "stroads".

MilesT | 25.02.22 - 8:31 a.m. | #

Sorry, but the light is green for pedestrians until a vehicle comes along, then it stops the pedestrians so that the vehicle can pass?

That doesn't sound like pedestrian priority to me. Sounds like the opposite.

You can cross as long as there isn't a vehicle approaching? How is that different from no crossing at all?

A Zebra crossing - true pedestrian priority - sounds like the very opposite.

Sarah | Homepage | 25.02.22 - 8:45 a.m. | #

You say that you "crossed this crossing dozens of times during the trial, and observed it dozens more, and never once did the green man show for longer than normal."
Did you ever see anyone collecting the data on which TfL rely, or any sign of any electronic data gathering equipment?

strawbrick | 25.02.22 - 8:55 a.m. | #

I think Zebra crossings win every time and with Driver/Pedestrian interaction are much friendlier.

mikeH | 25.02.22 - 9:07 a.m. | #

"It seems bikes and GPA don't mix, perhaps because cyclists are impatient but more likely because approaching cyclists fail to trigger the lights."

It wouldn't surprise me if a good chunk is the sensors not spotting the cyclists.

There's a traffic lighted road junction near me - a very busy A road and a small residential road that runs parallel (but which is blocked in the middle for everyone other than buses and cyclists.)

The junction has a huge disparity in traffic so the lights only change when there's someone on the residential road who turns up. But when I've turned up there on my bike, the traffic detectors regularly don't spot me. I end up having to move around, cycle back and forth, stamp on the ground. Even then it doesn't always work. I once got stuck there for five minutes until a car turned up behind me and the lights finally changed.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 25.02.22 - 9:11 a.m. | #

I’ve just been down to check the Devons Road crossing and it’s still stopping approaching traffic for the benefit of non-existent pedestrians.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 25.02.22 - 9:17 a.m. | #

Google streetview from April 2021 appears to show a pair of surveyors watching the pedestrian crossing at Devons Road, clickers in hand...

dg writes: That’s before the trial started, so might be the ‘before’ survey.

Tony | 25.02.22 - 9:29 a.m. | #

What made the original "Green Man" campaign slightly more clever and resonant was its unstated reference to the legendary being and symbol of rebirth. If GM can no longer be used, then a fresh start and a completely new idea is needed. Hacking it to "Green Person" just doesn't make any sense.

John Abbott | 25.02.22 - 9:56 a.m. | #

A very interesting post - I had no idea this was a "thing"! I'm wondering though, if the green person is accompanied by an audible warbling signal the whole time they are being displayed.

cau1khead | 25.02.22 - 10:09 a.m. | #

If you've been to check the crossing and found the lights changing for non-existent pedestrians, has a sensor picked you up as an existent (but non-crossing) pedestrian?

dg writes: No.

Do you actually have to press a button for the system to know you're there?

Stuart R | 25.02.22 - 10:09 a.m. | #

No mention of whether the speed limit on the road makes a difference.

kev | 25.02.22 - 10:24 a.m. | #

Did it need such a comprehensive survey to discover that many cyclists are impatient and more than likely to ignore red lights? It may be even worse in Bishopsgate than elsewhere, but daily experience shows that far too many cyclists regard red lights, zebra crossings and pavements as a challenge to be overcome, not indications of how to behave with consideration for pedestrians. London-wide adoption of the “two wheels good, four wheels bad” mantra has meant that pedestrians actually come a very poor last in many traffic-planning schemes (as witness DG’s own comments on the cycle lane/pavement realignment at bus stop M, replicated on many other bus routes). Perhaps the Bishopsgate results could have resulted in a re-think of the technology — to recognise bikes in the same way as vehicles — or even lead to the introduction of training for anyone planning to cycle in London.

Labourer | 25.02.22 - 11:20 a.m. | #

There wouldn't be a problem with crossings being gendered if they were marked "WALK" (usually in white) and "DON'T WALK" (red), as is the practice in North America (other specific light aspects are already not gendered).

There are multiple languages in use on that continent, and people cope adequately with word based signage in English.

Vienna convention on traffic signage is only a guideline I believe.

MilesT | 25.02.22 - 1:33 p.m. | #

“ If I assume the Devons Road crossing sees 1000 pedestrians a day, it's the equivalent of saving 5 seconds each”

I don’t think the average is the right thing to look at here - instead it’s the maximum wait time. There’s a crossing near me which sometimes changes within a few seconds but sometimes takes 2mins to allow me to cross, depending on the phase of the traffic lights. If it stays red for more than a minute I am very tempted to dash across.

If this technology was used there and the maximum wait time was reduced to 30seconds it would be loads safer (even if the average wait time wasn’t significantly changed, perhaps as most people wait much less than 2 minutes).

Mike on a bike (who stops on red lights) | 25.02.22 - 1:41 p.m. | #

"[...] But at Devons Road the lights only ever stayed red for the normal length of time, then switched back to red again when they spotted no traffic was coming. "
I'm sorry, but this sentence just flew over my head. Could someone explain?

I've only seen New York crossings which used a raised hand (red for stop). WALK/DON'T WALK would be pretty hard to read from across a street, I'm thinking... plus the UK (and everyone in Europe and much of the rest of the world) has had walking stick-figures for so long that it'd be a waste to change them for no good reason to a worse design.

anonymous | 25.02.22 - 2:25 p.m. | #

It sounds like they haven't got this sorted but im glad it's being tried, the lack of innovation in traffic lights is crazy. It would be easier to make them a bit smarter than all the effort to make cars self driving, eg if there is nobody waiting change the lights for the people who are.

one smart feature that's been in use in spain for years is a speed detector, if you are approaching a junction / crossing above the speed limit, then it WILL turn red, it's a simple nudge to people to stick to the limits without the need for fines etc.

Alistair Twin | 25.02.22 - 4:16 p.m. | #

Anonymous: the *traffic lights* are meant to stay red (and the pedestrian signal green) until some traffic shows up. But at this one, the *traffic lights* appear to cycle from red back to green, and then to red again, automatically, whether or not there are any pedestrians or vehicles.

Hope I've got this right.

Andrew | 25.02.22 - 6:01 p.m. | #

Alistair, there are already at least two installations of this type in the UK. On the A75 between Dumfries and Castle Douglas (at Crocketford and Springholm), lights at the beginning and end of each village are green but change to red if your speed is too high - even at 2.30am. Plenty of signs warning what happens as well. Very effective indeed at slowing down vehicles travelling above the limit. Not sure why they're not deployed more widely (e.g. the A5 across North Wales). For low volumes of traffic very much cheaper than a bypass I'm sure.

WestDr | 25.02.22 - 7:04 p.m. | #

The report says GPA can be switched on/off remotely, so maybe they did and forgot.

Another FOI perhaps "how often"

Mike D | 26.02.22 - 1:04 a.m. | #

The whole point of a low-traffic neighbourhood is that traffic volumes are so low that a pelican crossing would be redundant.

martin | 26.02.22 - 9:03 a.m. | #

You may want to check these lights again and see if they're working correctly now.

your friendly neighbourhood traffic engineer | 03.03.22 - 11:22 a.m. | #











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