please empty your brain below
Back in the 80s staff worked at least 3½-4 round trips per duty Ilford to Victoria. It was converted to One Person Operation and they did significantly less mileage.
Then privatised the route was poorly run from Ilford, (2 round trips per duty only) so any delays always resulted in curtailments away from the west to get staff back to Ilford. All buses went to Ilford regardless during delays, despite the availability of 86 from Stratford.
Then the mismanaged building of the Aldgate/Stratford bike lane 6 years ago, and twaeking 4 years ago, including rebuilding Stratford gyratory. The Stratford part contributed significantly to delays and should never have been given financial approval.
When 205 was introduced if it had gone to Stratford rather than Bow a reduction of 25 would have been prudent then, and would probably not have lead to this abomination today.
The 25 has linked Central London and Ilford since 20th June 1910 when the 8 and 25 swapped ends. In 1924 the Bassom system reduced the 25 to a confusing mix including 25/A/B/C/D (renumbered 25/A/B/C by London Transport in 1934). There was another renumbering on 3rd May 1950 when the 25B became the 25 and the 25 the 25A (the original 25A had been renumbered 26 in 1948).
I’m just glad I’m still reasonably physically able, as those who are mobility-limited or parents with young children are even worse served by them. Buses used to provide these types of traveller with a friendlier, more convenient and comfortable alternative, especially for journeys where the UndergrounD has limited or no Step-Free access i.e. the vast majority of Central London deep tube stations, including the Central Line stations.
I’m too old to “enjoy” the prospect of the TfL “hop-off / hop-on” proposal of using several buses to get across the capital. It is much less comfortable and safe, much less convenient, and much more time-consuming / time wasting, probably at least doubling the end-to-end journey time for any given trip.
Who do they think wants to stand around waiting at crowded bus stops for reduced frequency services to turn up (eventually), especially in poor winter weather, rather than being able to complete an intended journey in comfort and safety in one go. But as you say DG, TfL aren’t interested in bus passengers as people. All they care about is saving money, whatever it costs. Pitiful really.
Looking at these changes from a senior visitors perspective, seeing one of the iconic tourist experiences of one of the world’s great cities i.e. sight-seeing from the top deck of a Red London bus, being so diminished like this is hugely disappointing.
At a time when visitor numbers to some main galleries / museums are already falling, you’d have thought that those running London would have wanted to present a positive image to the world outside, of a city vibrant, welcoming, and prospering. Not one of penny-pinching austerity. Of cuts, cuts, and yet more cuts to key parts of its central transport system. It doesn’t look very welcoming from the outside looking in. All very sad.
The 25 hasn't been as busy as it used to for some time now though. I actually prefer getting it to the central line when the night tube is running as it's usually pretty empty by comparison and I'll probably get a seat
dg writes: New N25 timetable here. The first N25 departs Oxford Circus around 12.20am.
"Unfortunately, there is no spare stand space available at Holborn station or Tottenham Court Road to accommodate route 25. Even if there were it would incur additional costs which cannot be justified."
For some, the smaller cost differential between the bus and the Tube will attract more people to the Central Line - which hardly seems to be a good idea, if my recent experience of it is anything to go by (had to let four trains go at St Pauls before I could even get to within touching distance of the trains)
However, if (as in the TfL information you gave) it really takes 24 minutes for a bus to travel the half mile from Centre Point to Oxford Circus, that's an average speed of 1.25 mph (Google Maps suggest it only takes 10 minutes to walk) so there seems little point in using, or indeed providing, a bus along there.
Mon-Fri: every 6-10 minutes
Sat: every 7-11 minutes
Sun: every 9-13 minutes
(formerly London's busiest bus route)
How much are those additional costs, and what would it take to justify them?
It seems a bit odd to make cuts in the bus service now, anticipating one change (pedestrianisation) that is not happening at all, and another (Crossrail) that won't happen for at least a year.
Another case of someone making a decision and pressing doggedly ahead, whatever happens? No doubt it is very difficult to find a few dozen extra buses at short notice.
My westbound route 55 am peak is packed solid west of Queensbridge Road (Hackney Road); that'll be attacked if route 48 is withdrawn, regardless of extra buses on routes 26 and 55. Passenger numbers on route 48 and 55 have been under-counted, partly because TfL now only do peak hour counts on all routes, and only count boarding passengers not transits nor alighters.
Planners at desks with data and no operational experience derive 'good ideas', justified as cost-savings. Higher management (no operational experience again, or so long ago it's mis-remembered) find very attractive, and thus a bad idea becomes reality.
As long as passenger transport is measured by costs and revenue, not in broader cost-benefit, this will continue.
Meanwhile, some comments above seem suggesting the Labour Mayor is indeed very Tory in his bus-cutting policies.
These days it seems that no-one, whatever their political shade, understands that it's not all about money.
And that applies to many many situations, people, things and relationships.
Even if the pedestriansation of Oxford Street looks less likely right now, by removing buses it helps build the argument that it’ll be possible to do it later, whilst improving bus speeds and the environment in the short term.
However, there will also be an impact of Sadiq Khan's fare freeze on the budget. I personally agree with the principle of the fares freeze but given the other squeezes on TfL funding think this should have been limited to 2 years rather than the whole mayoral term.
Of course there are other issues for declining bus usage, many of which DG has already covered. In additional to traffic disruption caused by various schemes (including cycle schemes) I also wonder whether Uber has had an impact on some journeys.
A nice electric tram/trambus between Hyde Park and, say, Bank or wherever they can turn around. A service every 2 minutes, no other traffic in the way, then the 25 terminating early isn't an issue.
But as pointed out, the real issue is pricing. Maybe making London Living Wage (the real one) mandatory in Zone 1 would help.
Central Line exists TFL would say. But common sense would tell them that wheelchairs and the disabled can't use it.
Regardless of finances, they shouldn't be doing this. There's no alternative to route 25, and people simply won't make bus journeys anymore.
The previous fleets of empty buses in Oxford Street was silly, but this is too far the other way silly, and nowhere near mitigated by Crossrail. It's a complete journey killer for mobility impaired passengers. In my response to the consultations I have stated that it's disability discrimination of the most blatant order. Very much highlighted this this post's example of the difficulty of changing from the 8 to the 55 or 98.
A 5 mile bus journey in Hertfordshire, only 20 miles out of London, costs £6. A day ticket costs £9.50. For services that now often run hourly at their best.
Would Londoners care to pay more on their fares to fund the retention of route 25?
Always turned up at our stop no matter what the weather could throw at it, whether it was dense fog, ice, or the very heaviest of the sixties snowfalls in East London :)
Westbound buses show 'City Thameslink' on the front, not 'Holborn Circus'.
Several passengers, who have no idea where City Thameslink is, are anxiously asking the driver "Does this bus go to Whitechapel?" before boarding.
Passengers are also surprised when westbound buses turn right off the Broadway towards Stratford bus station, which is now being served by all 25s (and 425s) (in both directions) (from today). This is making journeys
a) better for interchange
b) a few minutes longer
Bus stop E in Stratford Bus Station is not yet open, so westbound buses are stopping at bus stop AP (Alighting point only), which is also closed.
Westbound bus stops in the Stratford area have been updated to display two new tiles for the 25 and N25.
Eastbound stops, and stops in the Bow area, have not been updated so still have a single (24 hour) 25 tile.
And the Oxford Street pedestrianisation that is another driver of these changes has been shelved, so what we have is a change that is happening based on other changes that have since been postponed.
*Still a problem, but less of one. That the 25 is so busy when so much of it is paralleled by rail lines shows that rail isn't necessarily a substitute for buses.
Unbelievable from Sadiq Khan.
The new N25 tiles displayed at the bus stops are, unusually for night buses, white rather than blue.
I still think this decision is sheer madness.
@ Rog: Yes, I had noticed the bus 10 tiles are still displayed at Marble Arch (I walk through Marble Arch as I take the coach to get to Oxford) though bus 23 has replaced it!
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