please empty your brain below
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Once you have a 'tube' line going to Reading, it'll be harder to argue against transferring inner suburban services to the Overground. Introducing PAYG to more stations outside London seems to be doing it by stealth.
Still Anon | 27.09.19 - 7:41 a.m. | #
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Fascinating as always - that explains several things I have occasionally pondered.
DavidC | 27.09.19 - 7:47 a.m. | #
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So those who don't have a contactless card will have to buy paper tickets. Will singles be as exorbitant as they are on the tube (in comparison with PAYG) or will they be at current NR rates?
anonymous | 27.09.19 - 7:55 a.m. | #
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I wonder if all stops to Reading will appear on Tube Map or just an arrow after Iver.
TomB | 27.09.19 - 7:59 a.m. | #
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I would like to know whether NR fares to Reading will be the same as TfL and also whether longer journies will benefit from split ticketing at Reading.
kev | 27.09.19 - 8:12 a.m. | #
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This is all very interesting, but what I really want to know is whether it’s true that I’ll be able to use my Freedom Pass to get to Reading.
dg writes: Yes :)
Bryn Davies | 27.09.19 - 8:29 a.m. | #
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From something i read yesterday, it'll be Tfl Rail from Dec 15th, but you won't be able to use Freedom Passes or any other type of TfL concession until Jan 2nd 2020.
How the HECK are they going to show this on a small pocket sized Tube Map - "Contactless fares only in these zones".
If Reading is NEVER going to be full Oyster (only up to West Drayton) then what happens in the future on the Purple train when someone tap in at (say) Tottenham Court Road with their Oyster, and expects to be able to travel out west to Reading on it ?!?
Geoff Marshall | 27.09.19 - 8:37 a.m. | #
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Railcard discounts can be applied to Oyster but not Contactless so Railcard users will still need to use paper tickets or pay more.
We don't yet know the full details of fares out to Reading but at Brookmans Park its paper tickets are cheaper at weekends than using Contactless but of course everyone thinks Contactless is cheaper.....
Railcard users at Brookmans Park get a double whammy. Maybe this would make a good DG blog.
Hadders | 27.09.19 - 8:48 a.m. | #
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Their in-house map says Meridian Road instead of Meridian Water...
MarcB | 27.09.19 - 9:06 a.m. | #
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It's also more expensive to use Oyster to/from Gatwick. Don't ever use Oyster/Contactless for Gatwick, it's there for sheer convenience of 'tap and go'. Paper tickets are cheaper.
Geoff Marshall | 27.09.19 - 9:12 a.m. | #
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For those who want to ride Purple Trains on the first day (Sun 15th December), my tip would be to buy a 'Thames Branches Day Ranger', which'll give you unlimited travel between Paddington and Reading, hop on and off as much as you want.
£21, or £14 with a Railcard.
Geoff Marshall | 27.09.19 - 9:15 a.m. | #
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Home town pride forces me to point out that Luton Airport Parkway is in Bedfordshire, not Hertfordshire. Sorry. But you gave Kent its own column for two stations...
Scott | Homepage | 27.09.19 - 9:25 a.m. | #
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It's the November 2018 issue of TfL's PAYG map that's available through the FOI link: the May 2019 issue is available by clicking on the map.
dg writes: Keep scrolling down.
Betterbee | 27.09.19 - 9:28 a.m. | #
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The single fare finder "knows" to charge a different fare travelling between zones W & G, than just remaining in zone G. If they are both 10/A, there must be some further information recorded.
Fred | 27.09.19 - 9:33 a.m. | #
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From the many comments from Geofftech I wonder if this is going to be a future video
Caroline Greenwell | 27.09.19 - 10:11 a.m. | #
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Though I welcome the idea of my local station soon getting contactless ability, my prejudice is that there’s no way the current myriad of peak, off-peak, super off-peak, day returns, saver returns and railcard discounts will be integrated.
I expect it will simply charge the most expensive anytime single fare in each direction, meaning that most people will end up paying more out of ignorance.
From most Hertfordshire stations, if you have any railcard it’s already far better value to buy a paper travelcard then use Oyster/Contactless.
PAYG does not equal cheaper fares!
Lew | 27.09.19 - 10:19 a.m. | #
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Lew is correct. Go to Hertford East at the weekend and watch almost everyone tap in with Oyster or Contactless.
Due to Super Off Peak fares at the weekend, which aren’t available on Oyster/Contactless it’s always cheaper to buy a paper ticket at the weekend, even without a railcard. They can’t all be season ticket holders....
Hadders | 27.09.19 - 10:30 a.m. | #
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...far too many zones! London should have just 3. a central zone...which mirrors the CCZ...a inner zone which has the south/north circulars as a boundary and a outer zone which be the boundary of London itself. simples
Grumpy Anon | 27.09.19 - 10:31 a.m. | #
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"what happens in the future when someone tap in at (say) Tottenham Court Road with their Oyster, and expects to be able to travel out west to Reading on it"
That scenario already exists at Brookmans Park - has anyone done the experiment? If the readers don't recognise Oysters it will presumably be the same situation as if you touched in at, say, Kings Cross and left the train at Cambridge - you'd be charged a maximum fare.
timbo | 27.09.19 - 10:36 a.m. | #
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Fred - Just as the system knows to charge more for travelling between, say Uxbridge and Upminster than between Uxbridge and Hillingdon, even though they are all in the same zone.
timbo | 27.09.19 - 10:38 a.m. | #
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Once Reading is in PAYG-land, what will happen if you tap in there and then take a direct train via Wokingham, which is outside PAYG territory, and tap out once you are back in PAYG-land again, for example at Twickenham or Gatwick? .
• Will it assume you have gone via Zone 1, even though that is not possible without tapping out and in again at least once (at Paddington).
• Will the absence of tap-outs make it assume you've done something circuitous, probably involving Ealing Broadway and West Brompton?
• Or will it charge you two maximum fares and report you for ticketless travel between Reading and Redhill/ Feltham
And if an inspector finds you at Wokingham?
timbo | 27.09.19 - 10:41 a.m. | #
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"Please note that Oyster and contactless payment will not be valid for travel on services operated by Great Western Railway."
And I Quote | 27.09.19 - 10:46 a.m. | #
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What a mess. Countless people will be caught out. How easy it is for someone (the government?) to change that (do they care?)
Another question: if TfL end up mucking things up, or people end up upset with the way services are run then how do the good people of Maidenhead, Reading etc change the Mayor of London? Surely one reason why TfL are put forward to run services in the GLA area is that *at least* those people can vote GLA elections? So TfL are running services to towns outside the GLA area where people cannot vote for or against the quango that the Mayor of London is Chair.
dg writes: TfL/London Transport have been running services to Amersham, Chesham and Watford since the 1930s.
Le Ver | 27.09.19 - 10:58 a.m. | #
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A bit of an unhappy situation really.
Contactless is fine for single journeys but if someone in Zone 6 say has an all zones travelcard season ticket on their Oyster, it will be really confusing that they will be able to use it (with a PAYG balance) to go outside of London to some destinations with readers (e.g. Hertford North), but not others a similar distance out like St Albans.
Mikey C | 27.09.19 - 10:59 a.m. | #
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My gripe with contactless over Oyster is that you never know if you have been overcharged for a journey unless you scrutinise your account after each use.
Contactless may be more convenient for all, but with Oyster you can see your balance whenever you tap in and as I always have a mental note of how much is on it, I know at a glance if something has gone wrong.
Cornish Cockney | 27.09.19 - 11:00 a.m. | #
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Tim! (& everyone)
because Brookmans Park doesn’t (and won’t) show on a Tube Map.
Tube Map = Oyster for many many people. If it’s on the Tube Map you can use Oyster.
So come December when TfL proudly add the service out to Reading on the pocket map, they’re going to have fun showing how you can’t use Oyster past West Drayton.
Unless, of course ... THIS is finally the moment that they ditch the pocket sized tube map and come up with something new!
Geoff Marshall | 27.09.19 - 11:11 a.m. | #
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Crossrail's press release says "TfL expects that GWR will also offer pay as you go with contactless on their services from 2 January 2020".
Betterbee | 27.09.19 - 11:17 a.m. | #
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With apologies if there's an obvious answer, why is contactless cheaper than Oyster for TfL? I would have thought it's the same work on the back end to work out the cheapest fare, but without having to deal with a third party (the card provider)?
North London Intelligentsian | 27.09.19 - 12:17 p.m. | #
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TfL have finally published their press release online. It was shared with trusted partners yesterday morning.
And here's the latest update from Mike's excellent Oyster Rail website, which is a great place to find answers (and ask questions).
diamond geezer | Homepage | 27.09.19 - 12:17 p.m. | #
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Oyster/Contactless has many confusing quirks.
I used a pre-pay contactless card to travel from Gatwick to London Bridge; the £10 credit was sufficent for the £8.30 fare and the gates opened at each end. However, the balance remained at £10. Several months later I used the same card intending to walk through Southwark station at no charge (Southeastern tickets are no longer valid) but it wasn't accepted. Turned out that the Gatwick journey was an Unpaid Fare; it took many calls before the helpline sorted it out. Perhaps I should have used split ticketing: the contactless fare goes down to £6.70 if you touch out and back in at East Croydon.
Now that Chris Grayling has been shunted off to the back benches, it will be interesting to see whether Grant Shapps accepts TfL's powerful case for metroisation in South East London & Kent and what the fares structure will be.
Gerry | 27.09.19 - 12:43 p.m. | #
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For those with railcards, singles and returns to GWR managed stations (Paddington, Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading) are available on the Chiltern Smartcard (not on GWR Smart yet). These are valid on TfL Rail as there is no route/TOC restriction.
Matthew Dickinson | 27.09.19 - 1:14 p.m. | #
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I thought there was mention recently of simplifying rail fares, all this seems to be making things more complicated. Maybe its my age.
I think TfL are getting too big for their boots and should shortly change their name to Transport for Southern England, plus collect council tax from people who live outside of Greater London too.
mikeH | 27.09.19 - 2:09 p.m. | #
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All these places miles outside the M25 are getting PAYG and yet Shepperton, from which you can *only* travel to London, is still stuck with paper tickets.
Forget lettered zones, it should have been put in zone 6 decades ago along with Thames Ditton and Epsom Downs and the other Surrey bits inside the M25.
Gregg | 27.09.19 - 2:17 p.m. | #
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mikeH - It's simplification in the sense of "just swipe your card and don't worry about what the cost is". Kind of like paying your bills by direct debit and not actually looking at the amounts, as increasingly many people seem to do.
Gregg | 27.09.19 - 2:20 p.m. | #
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I can't see Grant Shapps being any more interested in having TfL taking over local NR services than Grayling was, and for the same reasons.
Although I see he was born in Croxley, which has always had TfL/LT providing its local rail services despite being in Herts, maybe there is hope after all.
timbo | 27.09.19 - 5:21 p.m. | #
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It seems like Freedompasses are valid from day 1 to Reading on TfLRail services see here.
Andrew Jarman | 27.09.19 - 8:29 p.m. | #
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So I have a Zone 1-3 annual season ticket on Oyster. If I’m travelling from Forest Gate To Reading, do I get off the train at West Ealing, tap out, and then go contactless to Reading?
Barrington Quotient | 27.09.19 - 8:29 p.m. | #
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You'd buy a paper Boundary Zone 3 to Reading ticket before you started your journey. No need to tap out if using a season on Oyster.
As you have an annual season it should come with a Gold Card Record which you can use to get 34% discount if you're travelling after 09:30 on weekdays or anytime at weekends.
Hadders | 27.09.19 - 9:37 p.m. | #
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I'm intrigued/baffled that stations out to Gatwick, on non-TfL services, nabbed two Oyster zones but stations out to Reading, on TfL services, won't get one.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 27.09.19 - 11:43 p.m. | #
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The advice to never use Oyster to Gatwick doesn't apply to Travelcard holders with a railcard linked to their Oyster and travelling off peak. Can't remember the exact price, but I have a Z12 Travelcard and a Gold Card, and an off peak trip to Gatwick usually costs me just over £4, which is far cheaper than an equivalent paper ticket from Boundary Zone 2.
I realise this may not necessarily apply to huge numbers of people, and the advice to use paper tickets is generally sound, but it shows the complexity of the ticketing system means it's rarely possible to give clear-cut advice in the form of "always" or "never" statements.
Ed | 28.09.19 - 10:06 a.m. | #
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Just a thought, does this mean we might get a third colour of reader? Given the back of your Oyster (or mine anyway) says you can touch it anywhere you see the yellow symbol but you can't on these new ones maybe we should be seeing a new colour.
Sean OBrien | 28.09.19 - 1:26 p.m. | #
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"Four bits ought to be enough for anybody"
I'm sure they had tight constraints on how they designed the Oyster system, but to do it this way so soon after all the Y2K fuss does seem a little short-sighted.
drfoop | 30.09.19 - 11:25 a.m. | #
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If anyone's still reading this.. i am off to Brookmans Park tmrw to try all these things out. I too had thought "I wonder if there's a third colour of [non]Oyster pad reader!". Unlikely, but that would be fun ...
Geoff Marshall | 01.10.19 - 11:51 p.m. | #
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The advice to never use Oyster to Gatwick ... does NOT apply off peak !
for example Gatwick to Victoria is 10.70 gbp off peak on Oyster/Contactless ... but the cheapest paper ticket today is 16.70 gbp
ADS | 05.10.19 - 12:31 p.m. | #
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