please empty your brain below
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I thought this was already happening? This is why I voted for Brexit!
Geofftech | 14.03.18 - 7:02 a.m. | #
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In countries that have abolished 1cent coins prices are still charged as if they exist and then the bill you pay is just rounded up or down as appropriate. There is no need to reprice anything
John | 14.03.18 - 7:06 a.m. | #
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Why has no-one thought of this already? What would a blue passport cost?
John this is how it now works in Ireland.
ganching | Homepage | 14.03.18 - 7:13 a.m. | #
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Yes, that's what happens in Australia. If you pay by card, as the majority of people do over here the price stays the same. If paying cash it gets rounded up or down. Works fine as far as I'm concerned.
| 14.03.18 - 7:14 a.m. | #
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Not at all bothered by this, there are the usual protests from the usual suspects, it could just be restricted to cash payments anyway, so if you pay by card you still pay the 'shelf price', or cash to the nearest 5p.
Still Anon | 14.03.18 - 7:18 a.m. | #
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If the 1p and 2p coins go I will not have the fun of putting collections into those Coinstar machines at some supermarkets.
John | 14.03.18 - 7:36 a.m. | #
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Please don't give them all ideas!
Tom | 14.03.18 - 7:39 a.m. | #
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Rounding is fine, but if people complain about things getting more expensive, then why not just enforce rounding *down* in all cases?
I'd wait a few more years and then get rid of the 1p, 2p and 5p in one swoop, and not even bother with rounding, just get rid of the second decimal place except in the stock market (and everyone's bank balances can be rounded *up*).
I suppose it has been 20+ years since Australian 1c and 2c coins were abolished, but at least nowadays nobody wants 5c and machines don't accept them.
Nobody in Denmark uses the 50 ore coin either, although it's only been 10 years since the 25 ore coin was abolished.
There's so much nonsense about the £50 note too. Only tourists use them because it's too difficult for everyone else to get them.
What some people (not referring to commenters here) seem to be missing is that obviously, when cash used to be the only method of payment, the proportion of cash payments is going to decrease whenever a new way of paying takes off.
John | 14.03.18 - 7:45 a.m. | #
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Easy transition then to Guineas.
Richard | 14.03.18 - 7:47 a.m. | #
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I love it.
It won't bring back the 6d pocket money I mourned in 1971 but how beautifully simple!
Sarah | Homepage | 14.03.18 - 8:43 a.m. | #
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Where is the proof that 1 in 12 one pence coins is thrown away? I simply do not believe this.
dg writes: Page 10 of the Government's consultation document.
Blue Witch | Homepage | 14.03.18 - 8:48 a.m. | #
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I do remember 1971 and how, as primary school children, we made a profit from decimalisation. We used to buy 6d worth of sweets which became 2.5p. We immediately realised that by buying half as much, twice, it only cost 2p. The old lady in the sweet shop relying on the government issued ready reckoner didn't understand but we did.
kev | 14.03.18 - 9:12 a.m. | #
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I wondered last night where the absurd system of pounds, shillings and pence came from - Wikipedia told me it was ultimately derived from the Romans.
Weirdly enough.
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 14.03.18 - 9:24 a.m. | #
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When NZ withdrew 1c and 2c coins, nearly 30 years ago, prices stayed the same in most shops. Cash transactions were rounded up or down to the nearest 5c. 5c coins have now gone the same way and transactions are rounded to the nearest 10c.
Gordon | 14.03.18 - 9:41 a.m. | #
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On the surface of it, I'm in favour of rationalising the currency this way. It's not even as big a deal as it's been in the past in other countries, because cash is a decreasing method payment. As another article this morning pointed out, the penny is worth less than the ha'penny was when it was phased out.
On the other hand, for a good number of centuries the basic unit of currency in England was the penny. Not the pound. For many years, a pound (the monetary unit, as opposed to a pound of sterling silver) was *defined* as 240 pennies, and not the other way around. It seems a shame to end that.
Chz | 14.03.18 - 9:45 a.m. | #
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Why not just get rid of cash entirely? You can still pay £1.38 with a contactless card and it's much more convenient (and cheaper to run an economy that way, surely).
Nik | Homepage | 14.03.18 - 9:56 a.m. | #
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If rounding up is enforced, I'd like to see retailers giving the extra pence to a charity, ad many do with the plastic badge charge.
Of course I'm a good citizen and do this already by putting my small change into those collection boxes they sometimes have at tills.
G | 14.03.18 - 10:22 a.m. | #
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I can see my grocery budget suffering when things go up by 5p a time instead of smaller increments.
The cost of inflation could become very visual.
Cornish Cockney | 14.03.18 - 10:26 a.m. | #
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As somebody who suffers from urinary urgency, I feel this is highly discriminatory: there's no way I can save it until I have FIVE pennies to spend in one go.
Uncle Audrey | 14.03.18 - 11:02 a.m. | #
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On holiday in Germany last summer everything I saw was a multiple of 10 cents. When we changed trains at Brussels coming back there were prices in odd cents.
Sprout Eater | 14.03.18 - 11:19 a.m. | #
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In Australia, this has happened. The total bill is either rounded up or down. 6 or 7 goes down to 5 and 8 and 9 goes up to 10. Simple and it works. Credit card or debit card are charged the exact figure.
Peter Watmore | 14.03.18 - 11:48 a.m. | #
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I don't see the shilling revival idea happening, unless you want programmers like me earn fat and big LOL (or you want computer displays at / for banks *not* follow suit?)
Patrickov | 14.03.18 - 11:57 a.m. | #
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When the 1/2p coin was withdrawn retailers were told to round prices down. So I can't see why the same can't happen with the 1p & 2p coins. (Well, unless the value is less than, say, £1)
The consultation also asks about the £50 note. I wish they'd get rid of it. Tourists come with wads of them, then get upset 'cause few British shops accept them.
One of the (many) other questions the consultation asks is: What can be done to move to a cashless society?
Jon Jones | 14.03.18 - 1:15 p.m. | #
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DG is of course teasing us: shillings could never be used because they'd break calculators. That was the whole point of decimalisation.
But abolishing 1p and 2p coins would increase inflation. The vast majority of supermarket prices end in 9 or 5, so the nines would be rounded up and the fives would stay the same or, more likely, would have quietly been increased to 8 or 9 well before the withdrawal date.
And of course, it's a bad idea because it's just a further step on the road towards the cashless society and all that it would entail. No privacy, negative interest rates, easily imposed restrictions on how and where you spend your money...
Gerry | 14.03.18 - 1:20 p.m. | #
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We hardcore Brexiters demand not shillings which, as a previous correspondent has correctly stated. derive from those archetypal Euro-tyrants, The Romans ( what did they ever do for us? ). No, we demand a return to the GROAT. This beautiful British coin would allow everything to be priced in increments of fourpence giving us all plenty to do in trying to work out our meagre finances after everything has closed down and decamped to Eire. I for one would welcome the opportunity to participate in a fourpence-based economy.
drD | Homepage | 14.03.18 - 1:54 p.m. | #
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Yes, let's have shillings back. The return of
Bob a Job week
Florins
and maybe even a 10 bob note, well coin.
Geoff Lumley | 14.03.18 - 4:52 p.m. | #
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Surely the first step should be eliminating the 2p coins? How many people are going to guy something which costs £x.x1 or £x.x6 and need change?
Not Diamond Geezer | 14.03.18 - 4:57 p.m. | #
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I'm old enough to remember decimalisation and no prices were rounded down, only up. My bus fare went from 1/9 on the Friday to 10p (2 shillings) on the Monday which was D Day.
If coppers were abolished, as far as I can see the only things which would drop in price would be expensive items where 4p wouldn't particularly hit profit margins. So, for example, a laptop costing £399.99 would be priced at £399.95.
milliem | 14.03.18 - 5:35 p.m. | #
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My earlier question:
Where is the proof that 1 in 12 one pence coins is thrown away? I simply do not believe this.
Your response (thanks):
dg writes: Page 10 of the Government's consultation document.
I still can't see the proof - the document cited doesn't seem to say this?
I'm clearly missing something... especially as the BBC have been saying this all day.
Blue Witch | Homepage | 14.03.18 - 6:05 p.m. | #
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@drD Make Britain groat again.
Sprout Eater | 14.03.18 - 6:13 p.m. | #
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It'll end in tears I tell you. All prices will be rounded up. As others have remembered, this is how it happened with decimalisation and will happen again. Never underestimate the greed of the business lobby.
Initially, charities will certainly suffer. Take a look at the charity bottles/boxes that are everywhere. Maccie Dees especially. They're stuffed with copper.
And the cashless society? You're having a giraffe! It was really funny the other Sunday in Deptford to see the chaos in a coffee shop caused by the breakdown of the contactless machine...all those blokes with beards without coffee!
I was okay though as the shop is old fashioned enough to accept coinage and folding stuff, unlike some of the shops in Brockley (Hackney South) who have gone totally cashless and thus have lost my custom.
Chris | 14.03.18 - 6:27 p.m. | #
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Hello, pedant here. Our currency is based on the pound, and a penny is just a subdivision of this. Hence why at decimalisation it was the value of the penny that changed, not that of the pound.
Kirk | 14.03.18 - 6:40 p.m. | #
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Its not enough that my American brain can't convert Fahrenheit to Celsius, now you want me to convert pence into shillings?? I concede. I give. You win.
Steven | Homepage | 14.03.18 - 7:46 p.m. | #
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As Kirk says, we went from one pound divided into 20 shillings of 12 pennies each, to the same pound divided into 100 new pence (and kept the 2 shilling florin as a 10 new pence piece, and the 1 shilling coin as 5 new pence, until they were miniaturised). So 2.4 old pennies became 1 new penny.
Australia and New Zealand went a different way, turning £1 into $2, so a one shilling coin became worth 10 new cents (1.2 old pennies to 1 new cent). Which goes some way to explaining why the sterling/dollar exchange rate has historically been somewhere around 1:2.
If we are going to reintroduce the shilling, can we have the nice big old coins back, not the modern stunted versions?
Andrew | 14.03.18 - 8:29 p.m. | #
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Canada has also done away with the 1-cent coin. If you buy something and pay cash, the price is rounded up or down to the nearest $0.05.
Neil | 14.03.18 - 9:21 p.m. | #
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I hope coppers don't go because we'd miss them. We enjoy picking up 1p & 2p pieces (and other coins) from pavements and gutters. Many people think they are not worth retrieving when they accidentally drop them. We also find coins in the reject compartment of Coinstars, and in the supermarket 'self checkout' change return. It's surprising how much we collect, and it's a bit of a game to us.
Neesy | 14.03.18 - 11:01 p.m. | #
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Blue Witch. By chance, I visited the Royal Mint in Llantrisant a couple of weeks ago. Their tour is utterly fascinating.
The guide there had no end of statistics about number of coins minted, number in circulation etc. The guide pointed out that a considerable number of low value coins just disappear - every year they have to mint many more new 1p and 2p coins than the number of old ones returned by banks for recycling. Hence the assumption that some people throw the low value coins away.
IslandDweller | 15.03.18 - 7:40 a.m. | #
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Fxxxing hxxl, I'd better get some fxxxing swearing in before the price goes up on the fxxxing swear box.
B | 15.03.18 - 8:21 a.m. | #
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@Andrew, "Australia and New Zealand... turn[ed] £1 into $2 ... sterling/dollar exchange rate ... around 1:2."
That's an inaccurate simplification and reversal of causation.
The Australian pound and British pound diverged in the 1920s (with the eventual rate being British 1s = Australian 1s3d). Both currencies then pegged to the US dollar separately. After the Australian government decided to listen to the people and call its decimalised unit the dollar (rather than the royal), it felt that the value should resemble, but exceed, the US dollar, so did a 1:2 conversion. A 1:2.4 conversion (turning the pre-decimal penny into a cent) was also considered but this would have made the AUD worth less than the USD at the pegged rate. Perhaps the sentiment that the UK was about to abandon Australia for closer ties with continental Europe and that Australia's future lay more with the US played a part in this decision.
The New Zealand pound did not really exist as a separate concept from the sterling pound until the Great Depression, when Australian banks decided that they would impose a fee when sending pounds to and from New Zealand. After this, the Reserve Bank of NZ was established and followed its own exchange rate policy, and followed Australia's lead in choosing the dollar as the decimalised unit. But when the UK (and Australia) devalued vs the US in 1967, NZ decided that was not suitable of itself, and that ended any semblance that the currencies were related to each other.
John | 15.03.18 - 9:59 a.m. | #
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@Milliem
The pricing of things themselves wouldn't change. Only the grand total would be rounded up or down to the nearest 5p, and only if paying in cash. This is called Swedish rounding.
For example, buying a 64p lollipop and a 98p stamp adds up to £1.62 - paying by card, you pay exactly £1.62; paying in cash, you pay £1.60 - in this particular case, the rounding has worked in your favour.
Jan | 15.03.18 - 10:39 a.m. | #
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Thanks Island Dweller - you have confirmed my suspicions. The idea that 1 in 12 1p coins is thrown away is utter speculation.
While that number may be missing in action, they are very unlikely to have been deliberately put in the bin.
They may be in money boxes, drawers, or used for other DIY purposes (propping things up, weighting things like the hems of curtains), but I simply do not believe they are knowingly put in rubbish.
"Look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves!" as my Grandma used to say - works for me, and clearly works for others too (eg Nessy above).
Blue Witch | Homepage | 15.03.18 - 11:21 a.m. | #
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Blue Witch - there was a survey two years ago where "one in ten people" admitted throwing coins away because they were too heavy.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/brits-throw-away-loose-change-7250651
An Express article from 2010 reckoned one in five people do - although the Express is hardly the most reliable source of news.
It's not new. BBC News reported this in 2004:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4056291.stm
That last one's the most interesting as that survey revealed 33% of young people threw coins away.
Not just in the UK either. At least one American does it.
http://freakonomics.com/2007/02/01/note-to-self-stop-throwing-out-pennies/
Of all which reminds me that I've got £7 in coppers all bagged up ready for the bank. Funny thing is, ever since I got a contactless credit card I've not been putting them to one side like I used to. Those bags have been full and waiting for over two years!
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 15.03.18 - 11:44 a.m. | #
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Andrew Bowden - thanks, yes, I've just been doing the same research and found similar references going back years... and came to the same conclusion about reliability of sources!
The abuse of statistics (and worse, made up statistics) is a real bugbear of mine.
However, while I am still totally unconvinced by the 1 in 12 figure, I shall now add 'throwing away 1p coins' to my ever-growing list of 'reasons why most people will never be able to afford to retire.' :)
Blue Witch | Homepage | 15.03.18 - 12:06 p.m. | #
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I can never understand the mentality of people that hoard loose change: they are the ones creating problem in the first place. When don't they just spend it just as fast at they receive it?
The biggest idiots are those who use the rip-off Coinstar machines that supermarkets have cynically installed. They get charged a massive fee of almost 10% for their stupidity.
The funniest thing is that they could have poured all their shrapnel into the 'Unexpected Item in the Bagging Area' checkouts and not been charged a single penny !
Gerry | 15.03.18 - 12:20 p.m. | #
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Whilst I generally think throwing money away is just stupid, I'm not sure that £7 I have bagged up will do that much to my pension ;)
Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 15.03.18 - 12:21 p.m. | #
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I can assure you all that NO one pence coins are thrown away because there is no such thing.
As is clearly shown in DG's first picture, the smaller coin is One Penny.
Penny is singular, pence is plural.
The Notts Pedant | 15.03.18 - 9:19 p.m. | #
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Aren't pedants insufferable?
Mike | 15.03.18 - 9:41 p.m. | #
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Gerry - The supermarket self-service checkout machines only take a few coppers, maybe 10-15 or so.
After a while they just give up the ghost and spit everything back out at you.
Chris | 16.03.18 - 12:00 p.m. | #
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@ Gerry & Chris
1p and 2p coins only to the value of 20p are considered legal tender. A retailer doesn't have to accept coins above that value and can insist you pay up with bigger coins/notes.
https://www.royalmint.com/help/trm-faqs/legal-tender-amounts/
B | 16.03.18 - 8:44 p.m. | #
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high-time that 1p&2p coins were got rid-of!
Grumpy Anon | 07.07.18 - 8:33 a.m. | #
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