please empty your brain below
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My main concern is what will happen to the hydrogen buses that TFL spent millions on. I'm sure that they can't be used on other routes if I'm correct?
Dylan George | 03.10.18 - 7:03 a.m. | #
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It can't be a coincidence that halving the frequency has halved the number of passengers. A bus every 20 minutes is far from "turn up and go". That said, central London is quite well served with other options.
Perhaps this is how TFL eliminates routes with least fuss, in increments. Sobering when you realise how many others have been cut back in recent years. Is there a list somewhere of other routes with similarly low passenger number and/or cost recovery that might also be vulnerable?
Andrew | 03.10.18 - 7:20 a.m. | #
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Halving the frequency has cut the number of passengers by 30% (17,000pw → 12,000pw).
Usage of the RV1 is now running at about 70 per cent of the previous year.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 03.10.18 - 7:40 a.m. | #
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What a nice bus driver.
Anon1 | 03.10.18 - 7:44 a.m. | #
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The cost of operating RV1 at £3.3m a year seems high - that's about £10 a km which is about double that for a high frequency double decker route - I wonder if that is the figure for the pre-frequency cut.
If not the cost of operating the service previously would have been around £6.6m with just £1m of revenue. You can see why the service was cut - some of the busiest routes in London cost about the same to run.
F | 03.10.18 - 7:54 a.m. | #
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A bus route I have used many times to get to places along the South Bank. Pity it is going, guess I shall have to do more walking.
John | 03.10.18 - 8:13 a.m. | #
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@Dylan George
The hydrogen buses could be used on other routes - indeed the first hydrogen buses in London, back in 2004, were used on the 25.
So far only one depot has the refuelling facilities, but that depot serves more than a dozen routes.
timbo again | Homepage | 03.10.18 - 8:33 a.m. | #
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RV1 replaced station link Sl1 & Sl2 that ran virtually empty because they were half hourly.
Scrumpy | 03.10.18 - 9:06 a.m. | #
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At least TfL acknowledged that the endless roadworks have had an impact on the RV1, but it was something of an artificial confection, I'm not sure how much the non-standard buses added to the costs (only one operator has the equipment - so if you keep the buses you have to install all the equipment again if you award the contract to someone else), with TfL now using battery power for single deck routes in zone 1, the RV1 would have required expensive all-new battery powered buses instead of using existing diesel powered buses with upgraded exhaust systems - it ended up in a technological cul-de-sac.
I wonder about the long term future of the 19 and 45 after the changes, both of which will then be largely paralleled by the 4 and 35 respectively, the 'hopper fare' being the justification for complete withdrawal.
Still Anon | 03.10.18 - 9:06 a.m. | #
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@scrumpy
Not really - the northern leg of the circular SL1/SL2 morphed into the 205 in 1999. The other three sides of the square became the short-lived 705 which duplicated parts of many other routes. It became redundant when "accessible" buses became the norm on all routes.
timbo again again | Homepage | 03.10.18 - 10:24 a.m. | #
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Timbo is incorrect.
The 205 was introduced in 2002.
Outpedanted | 03.10.18 - 10:38 a.m. | #
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I wonder how many users of those buses would be aware that there are six large tanks of Hydrogen above their heads.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HyFLEETCUTE-HydrogenBus-London1.JPG
drD | Homepage | 03.10.18 - 11:26 a.m. | #
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It is all about money.
RV1 is a very useful route for tourists. It probably brings a net benefit to London if you count the profits from other ventures which the tourists are travelling between.
But no, such indirect benefits are too hard to measure, so along with heritage routemaster routes, it has to go. Sad.
Malcolm | 03.10.18 - 11:47 a.m. | #
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It would be good if these buses are used elsewhere if the route is withdrawn. They are exceptionally quiet and smooth and lovely buses to travel on.
Martin | 03.10.18 - 11:51 a.m. | #
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Yes, hydrogen is dangerous stuff if not properly managed.
But then so is petrol. Which anyone over 16 can legally dispense with very few precautions taken.
Malcolm | 03.10.18 - 11:52 a.m. | #
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It would be great if notices on the closed stops, such as the ones on Tower Bridge, actually told you where to go to find the nearest alternative, rather than the information-free advice to "use another stop".
Malcolm | 03.10.18 - 11:57 a.m. | #
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@Malcolm: If someone proposed petrol as a source of energy now, it wouldn't be allowed...
Southern Heights (Light Railway) | 03.10.18 - 1:09 p.m. | #
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It is, of course, incredibly easy to make a case against any bus cut-how about an article suggesting where the money could be saved elsewhere on the bus network?
Sir Biton | 03.10.18 - 1:51 p.m. | #
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One thing that concerns me as a regular commuter on the 381 is that whenever the 381 is late running (usually due to heavy traffic) the westbound service usually terminates at Dockhead essentially leaving Central London without a service.
Before that has not been a major inconvenience as it is only a short walk to the first RV1 stop on Tooley Street but soon that won't be an option.
I think the biggest issue with the RV1 is the constant diversions due to roadworks and changes in road layouts that change its route - it used to do a big loop to serve Tanner Street when going westbound and it also went up Great Guildford Street to try to get close to Tate Modern.
Nowadays between Tower Bridge and Waterloo bar a small deviation near the Oxo Tower it essentially mirrors the 381 at a much lower frequency.
Unfortunately, the traffic jam at the junction of Blackfriars Road and Stamford Street is a permanent feature ever since the left turn shortcut from Stamford Street onto the bridge was built over as part of the One Blackfriars development, and the traffic lights were re-timed. Now Blackfriars Road gets over 50% of the green time and queues rarely form whilst Southwark Street and Stamford Street now have their own individual green phase, and the latter usually has its own 10 minute traffic jam!
Rotherhithe | 03.10.18 - 2:02 p.m. | #
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Usage fell 30% from February 2018, compared to the unusually low numbers since 2015, it is true.
It fell about 50% compared to the more usual figure of around 100,000 to 150,000 every 4 weeks over the previous 13 years from 2002 to 2015.
Look at the graph at the bottom of page 3 of the TfL review paper, and then compare the graphs on pages 4 and 5. Is the position since 2015 the "new normal"? The report acknowledges that the decrease in passengers since early 2015 is due to roadworks. If service levels were retained, perhaps passenger numbers would recover after the roadworks were completed.
The message seems to be that a dip in passenger numbers over a year or two is a reason to eliminate services. Perhaps it is justified in this case. Who's next?
Andrew | 03.10.18 - 2:10 p.m. | #
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What a way to run a bus service. No coordination with ongoing roadworks. Poor communication on buses and at bus stops. The knee jerk reaction that because of problems you reduce the service frequency which then means less people use the bus service. All adds up to cuts in the service and the public lose out once again.
Tones | 03.10.18 - 2:47 p.m. | #
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Every 20 minutes is pathetic for a central London service, it's an easy way to get rid of a route really as people will use other options.
But then TfL is in a very different financial state to what it was like in 2002 AND politically, buses now seems very far down the pecking order.
Mikey C | 03.10.18 - 3:47 p.m. | #
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"...there is a subsidy of £2.6 million a year for the route, about £3.23 for each customer journey..."
Seems like a cast iron reason to scrap it to me.
Chris P | 03.10.18 - 5:28 p.m. | #
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Clear-cut case for withdrawal really - but I can't be the only one annoyed at the formulation of the final sentence in the report:
It is recommended that the RV1 is withdrawn.
Which should of course read:
It is recommended that the RV1 be withdrawn.
The subjunctive seems to be going the same way as the RV1, methinks...
Mildmay Man | 03.10.18 - 6:13 p.m. | #
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In the year 2017/18, just before its frequency was halved, the RV1 was London's 60th least used bus route.
It was also the least used bus in central London - all the buses with fewer passengers were out on the suburban periphery.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 03.10.18 - 7:09 p.m. | #
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No tears for this route being axed - a deserved candidate for the chop. You all voted Khan - now reap the whirlwind...
Mark | 03.10.18 - 7:41 p.m. | #
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Where is the hydogen filling depot?
kev | 03.10.18 - 8:15 p.m. | #
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Kev. Temple Mills Lane, Stratford.It is only 350 bar pressure compared to the other one at Heathrow twice that. I used to fill a Hyundi there. Gas is trucked in on trailers, but if there were more buses there easy to make on site. Only 12 buses so hard to find a suitable route to transfer to.
Scrumpy | 03.10.18 - 9:01 p.m. | #
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@Scrumpy. The peak vehicle requirement for the RV1 is just six. Of the dozen or so other routes run from the same depot (where the refuelling facility is) none have a PVR of less than 10. Whether a fleet of 12 is sufficient to meet a requirement for at least ten to be on the road I wouldn't know.
timbo again again again | Homepage | 03.10.18 - 10:36 p.m. | #
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Obviously the PVR of the RV1 used to be more than six before its frequency was halved, obviously.
Tedious rebuttal | 03.10.18 - 10:52 p.m. | #
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since London tax payers are providing the subsidy, i'm all up for considering whether the money is well used ... but the figures they quote are not the ones they should be using to analyse whether to cut this route.
instead of using the figure of £3.3m as the cost of operating the route - they should be using an average cost (so the route analysis isn't skewed by the extra cost of the hydrogen experiment).
they also need to factor in the disposal / reusability of the hydrogen buses. if they are going to cost more to get somebody to take them off TfL's books - then it completely changes the decision whether to play or pass (as Henry Kelly used to say) !
ADS | Homepage | 03.10.18 - 11:38 p.m. | #
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If you read the full report...
There is a premium cost to operating the RV1, given the use of hydrogen buses, but even when that is taken into account, the cost recovery would still be as low as 24 per cent.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 03.10.18 - 11:46 p.m. | #
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If the hydrogen buses can only be refuelled at Stratford, might it not be good idea to use them on a route that goes there ?
kev | 04.10.18 - 10:38 a.m. | #
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It is worth noting that several of the 2002/3 era new route introductions are not doing well. The RV1 is for chop, the 388 has been mucked about with and more is planned, the 228 has had its frequency chopped and others like the 414 must be at risk.
The only two major successes are the 148 and 205. The 452 has been more variable but the extension to Vauxhall has added extra passengers. I wonder if any new creations from TfL will manage to last as long or whether we are returning to the 1970s and 80s where new or amended routes last only 1-2 years before being scrapped or changed again. Budget pressures mean there will be less scope to wait a decent time for patronage to build on new services - usually takes 3-4 years for new services to become properly established with stable ridership.
The loss of the RV1 is a shame and once the 50% frequency cut was made the end was nigh. A similar tactic is being used on the 19, 45 and 171 so they will be in the "last chance saloon" from next year. I am pretty convinced that TfL's current plans are just the 1st phase of several of large scale changes.
PC | 04.10.18 - 12:00 p.m. | #
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RV1 is the most pointless route in the TFL network.The stops at the Eye,South Bank,& Upper Ground are no more than a 2-4 minute walk from 381 stops on York Road & Stamford Street.The busiest section of the RV1 is from London Bridge to Tower Gateway.This section is being replaced by extending the 343 from City Hall,via Tower Bridge to Aldgate.
Kevin Lucioni | 04.10.18 - 4:18 p.m. | #
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Shame this route is going. Many roads are going to be unserved like Covert Garden, Waterloo and the South Bank. The 343 is getting extended to Aldgate as a replacement across Tower Bridge, which in turn allows the 40 to be cut from, thus leaving Fenchurch Street Station without any other public transport service whatsoever. I think not. Despite the lack of dosh, there should some effort to have some form of bus service down the lost roads. Uber is not a bus service TFL, nor can most afford it. So the rest should walk, including the disabled.
There are not many routes at the Stratford Garage that would be able to take them hydrogens. The number D8 between Stratford, Bow, Canary Wharf and Crosshabour looks the most obvious to me. The 444 between Wood Green and Chingford could also work.
Gregory | 04.10.18 - 6:55 p.m. | #
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Mark
“Transport for London (TfL) had been told in 2013 it would eventually have to be self-sufficient with its operating costs.
Today it was told by when.
There will be no more general grants from the government for day-to-day running of services from 2018 - earlier than TfL thought.
That grant currently stands at £591m a year but it will be tapered down. “
Maybe it was your vote that did for it.
Rick | 09.10.18 - 9:23 p.m. | #
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