please empty your brain below
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The 464 bus is quite interesting actually because it runs on a 15% gradient road, Saltbox Hill! It literally runs down the side of a valley and the buses really have to gain some speed before climbing the hill!
LBOTG | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 7:08 a.m. | #
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It's way out of London, but you may be interested in the steepest signed gradient in the country: the 40% descent from Harlech Castle down Ffordd Pen Llech. It also has a sign saying "unsuitable for motors".
https://goo.gl/maps/wwpBAqNAeu82
martin | 16.11.17 - 7:18 a.m. | #
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Whilst irrelevant to DG's blog I travelled last week on 10% gradients........by tram.
100andthirty | 16.11.17 - 7:34 a.m. | #
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Ha! I was about to say Succombs Hill. Silly me
Rupert | 16.11.17 - 7:35 a.m. | #
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Those residents of Fox Hill, Crystal Palace must trust the handbrakes of their vehicles, or leave them in gear - none appear to be turning the front wheels so as prevent a downhill run. The white van has its front wheels turned facing into the road.
shirokazan | 16.11.17 - 7:36 a.m. | #
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shirokazan, The downhill parking without the front wheels turned to the kerb was the first thing I noticed too. Seems drivers soon forget the Highway code.
There is a moderately steep hill in Richmond at Nightingale Lane, which used to be two way traffic but is now uphill only.
Nearby Star and Garter Hill is fairly steep.
John | 16.11.17 - 7:55 a.m. | #
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Vanbrugh Hill in Greenwich has a 17% gradient. It's on the 386 bus route. Can't get a photo but if you check Google Maps, there's a sign between Calvert and Annandale Roads heading south.
dg writes: Here's a photo, courtesy of Geograph. So it goes into the list. Thanks Ned!
Ned | 16.11.17 - 8:06 a.m. | #
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I used to live at the top of Canonbie Road in Forest Hill. Great views from my flat, but the walk up the hill with shopping was an absolute killer.
Frankie Roberto | 16.11.17 - 8:26 a.m. | #
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Steepness aside, I wonder which road in London has the longest, unbroken downhill/uphill gradient? Cyclists will probably be best placed to know.
Waterhouse | 16.11.17 - 8:37 a.m. | #
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Leaving cars. Automatic transmissions mean that when stationary they are generally not just relying on the handbrake. Even so, the highway code advice remains in force (when you have belt and braces, there's no harm in a piece of string as well).
Malcolm | 16.11.17 - 8:55 a.m. | #
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We now have 20 hills...
...every single one in South London.
Any more?
diamond geezer | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 8:57 a.m. | #
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Interesting that so many of these signs are at the bottom of the hill. The top is well worth a warning, in case some feature of your vehicle (like a horse pulling it, for instance) would make an unexpected downslope dangerous. An unexpected upslope is both less likely (you can see it more easily) and less dangerous.
Malcolm | 16.11.17 - 9:00 a.m. | #
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My mum (now 93) told me once that a treat as a small girl was to go to Cudham and watch cars make multiple attempts to get up that hill.
Purley is surprisingly hilly as borne out by the quoted examples.
On the same escarpment as Spout Hill about a mile away is the delightfully named Corkscrew Hill. I think it would have qualified before work was done to make it less treacherous. I don't think it even has a gradient sign any more but, for many years, there was a sign at the top stating 'Cyclists are advised to dismount' which was a legacy from its more-corkscrewy days.
Pedantic of Purley | 16.11.17 - 9:11 a.m. | #
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It is significant that each of your 'hill headings' includes the '1 in x' in brackets. The percentage scheme really hasn't caught on. It is not instantly clear what the percentage means, whereas 1 in 4 is obvious at a glance - and a glance is all you'll get when you're travelling at 30mph and the sign suddenly appears at the top of a hill.
Hopefully we can return to '1 in 4' when we leave the EU.
RayL | 16.11.17 - 9:28 a.m. | #
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There's a few steep roads around Hornsey, North London. Alas, a quick look on google streetview doesn't show up any triangle signs.
This comment is therefore just a (dull) anecdote and not a data point.
David @dtl | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 9:42 a.m. | #
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Hong Kong still uses ratios and I think it's much easier to understand than percentages.
Patrickov | 16.11.17 - 9:46 a.m. | #
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They teach percentages to 10 year-olds these days, and ratio notation to 12 year-olds.
Those of you moaning about percentages on hill signs are probably just old...
Stephen | 16.11.17 - 10:00 a.m. | #
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How long and how steep does the gradient need to be to qualify for a sign, although North London does have some hills, none seem to qualify.
Still anon | 16.11.17 - 10:12 a.m. | #
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The official Department of Transport guidance says road signs "should normally be used only where the gradient is 10% or more."
There's nothing about how long a hill has to be to qualify.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 10:20 a.m. | #
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I should imagine there are some steepish hills by Hampstead Heath.
Also Tower Bridge is probably steeper, at least when the roadway is raised;)
Adrian | 16.11.17 - 10:20 a.m. | #
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Having grown up in West Wickham the last two posts have led to some google-fueled reminiscences. I am pleased to have found out that Downe Scout Camp is still going strong after nearly 90 years. I have also discovered that Nigel Farage went to the same school as I did at the top of Corkscrew Hill but was apparently asked to leave before he was expelled!
whiff | 16.11.17 - 10:21 a.m. | #
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The other benefit of percentages (which were prescribed in 1981) is they allow for finer gradation. Those 15% hills as a ratio would be 1 in 6⅔.
On the other hand a lot of signs seem to have just taken the old, rounded-off ratios and converted them rather than re-measuring. That's why 17% (being 1 in 6) is so common.
Geoff | 16.11.17 - 10:45 a.m. | #
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I took a look around Harrow on the Hill, which I know quite well, on google streetview to go sign spotting, but couldn't find a single percentage sign on known steep roads. Sadly, I don't have an O/S map to hand - but would have thought that a few roads there would surely qualify. Some, like Roxeth Hill, have 25% stretches, but then eek out only a measly 5% overall.
poconnor | 16.11.17 - 11:19 a.m. | #
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RayL,
It is not instantly clear what the percentage means, whereas 1 in 4 is obvious at a glance
Not at all. Does it mean it goes up 1 unit for every 4 units traversed forward on the slope. Or up 1 unit for every 4 horizontal units. Or to be more technical, are we talking about tangents or sines? So is '1 in 1' a 45 degrees slope or a sheer vertical face? Mind you, the same problem applies to percentages.
Even better, from a visual point of view, is if the slope, on the sign represented the true gradient.
You really don't like the EU do you?
(Note: rhetorical question).
Pedantic of Purley | 16.11.17 - 11:19 a.m. | #
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Fox Hill, that stirred some memories. Back in the mid/late 80's I lived in Upper Norwood and a guy used to organise some 'short sharp' runs around Crystal Palace. Always starting and finishing at the Parade. So down and up.
One of his favourite finishes I remember was up Fox, and for those that wanted it, right into Tudor, down Belvedere, down Cintra, then up Patterson to the top of Milestone. Psychologically for me it was the down! Cintra bit I hated! And the sight of those triangular signs. They're all bloody steep
Dave | 16.11.17 - 12:00 p.m. | #
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Although I couldn't see the sign for Plum Lane, there are a couple of isolated concrete lamp posts that have escaped replacement, they may even be fitted with the old style orange lamps too.
The lack of signs in North London may be because the roads are older and have been built up for longer, so pre-date the introduction of motor vehicles - Muswell Hill for example.
Still anon | 16.11.17 - 1:13 p.m. | #
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> The official Department of Transport guidance says road signs…
Tangentially off topic but topical, DfT yesterday admitted that it accidentally made No Entry signs legally unenforceable in 2016.
The loophole remains in place throughout England and Wales until 13 December.
Who knew?
Rich G | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 1:14 p.m. | #
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RayL: I can't find any evidence that the introduction of percentages on gradient signs is EU-related. The only EU law relating to road signs that I have found is for tunnels on the Trans-European Road Network, which doesn't mention gradients.
Geoff: Percentage gradient signs also appeared in the 1975 Regulations. Sadly, legislation.gov.uk doesn't have any earlier Traffic Signs Regulations, so I can't conveniently trace them back further.
Ben Harris | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 1:38 p.m. | #
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Re: poconnor | 16.11.17 - 11:19 a.m.
I also had a look at Harrow on the Hill on an OS Map and no joy. Had a look at Old Redding, Stanmore COmmon etc too and no joy there either! The elusive search for a verifiable hill North of the river continues...
Espadrilles | 16.11.17 - 1:39 p.m. | #
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Ben Harris: Looks like the landmark Traffic Signs Regulations 1964 (which preceded the 1975 revision) gave "1:10" and "1:6" as examples, not percentages. Downhill ever since :)
Rich G | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 2:02 p.m. | #
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“Steep hill warning signs expressing gradients in percentage terms were first prescribed in 1975. Any erected since then must be of the new design, but there is no requirement for signs erected earlier to be replaced until this becomes necessary in the course of normal maintenance. No special assessment has yet been made of the extent to which drivers correctly interpret the significance of the signs.” – Hansard, 1983
Rich G | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 2:12 p.m. | #
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How about the steepest hill with a TfL bus route on it? I would choose the 412 from Purley up to Riddlesdown.
Sir Biton | 16.11.17 - 2:47 p.m. | #
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Sir Biton,
That isn't even as steep as the 412 from the foot of Riddlesdown (Mitchley Wood) to Sanderstead Church!
Pedantic of Purley | 16.11.17 - 3:56 p.m. | #
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Meanwhile, in the rest of the country... I live in a street parallel to what is - according to a BBC/Ordnance Survey survey - the third steepest street (i.e. residential street) in the country. In a masterpiece of incomparability, though, they have expressed the gradient in degrees from the horizontal.
http://chertsey130.blogspot.co.uk/2017/08/a-bit-steep.html
I've never ubnderstood it in percentages. It's as if they've taken a ratio, decided it was a fraction, and then converted that to a percentage. Maybe degrees makes more sense.
Sarah | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 4:05 p.m. | #
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@RayL
"are we talking about tangents or sines? So is '1 in 1' a 45 degrees slope or a sheer vertical face?"
According to the knowledgable people on SABRE, roads use tangent (i.e using the distance measured on a map), railways use sine (i.e using the length of the rail). The difference is insignificant on any gradient likely to be found on a road.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27610&start=20
timbo | 16.11.17 - 4:17 p.m. | #
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We still have 20 hills...
...every single one in South London.
So far, after 30+ comments, we've only added one extra hill.
Any more?
diamond geezer | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 5:38 p.m. | #
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Do any of these locations have old [accident] black spot signs or did they in the past?
Nameless | 16.11.17 - 6:37 p.m. | #
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Where Norbury Cross turns in Ena Road SW16 there appears to be a 17% sign - no sign going the other way that I can see
john | 16.11.17 - 8:21 p.m. | #
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Is Saltbox Hill in Greater London? its 15% and near Biggin Hill
john | 16.11.17 - 8:29 p.m. | #
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I recommend reading all the way down today's post, john.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 8:31 p.m. | #
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Apologies going blind in my old age!
john | 16.11.17 - 8:42 p.m. | #
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Beulah Hill and Knights Hill are quite a climb too but are unsigned.
Andrew Jarman | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 10:53 p.m. | #
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Grange Hill SE25 nr Cpalace is steep but unsigned too.
Andrew Jarman | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 10:58 p.m. | #
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Beulah Hill - maximum of 6%
Knights Hill - maximum of 8%
Grange Hill - mostly 11%
http://www.bikehike.co.uk is absolutely fantastic for checking the elevation and gradient of cycle routes, btw.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 16.11.17 - 11:06 p.m. | #
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In 2011 I drove up, and then down, Baldwin Street in Dunedin - New Zealand, just because it was there. Hairy. It is 1:2.86 at the steepest point. 35% in foreign.
scrumpy | 16.11.17 - 11:54 p.m. | #
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Broomhill Road, Br6. 10% sign posted...
Southern Heights (Light Railway) | 17.11.17 - 12:35 a.m. | #
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Not sure of the gradient but Nightingale Place in Woolwich has a pretty steep hill
Rachel | 17.11.17 - 7:15 a.m. | #
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Its steepness isn't the only hazard of Downe Road: it's also pretty narrow! https://www.flickr.com/photos/32293736@N04/28747407873/in/dateposted-public/
RogerW | 17.11.17 - 9:50 a.m. | #
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Wow, a name check in a DG post - highlight of the week!
The Downe Road/Hangrove hill and Jewels Hill/Saltbox Hill roads are fairly close together, in adjacent valleys either side of Biggin Hill. Both easy to cycle to from London via Corkscrew Hill.
I think the reason for South London having the monopoly on steep hills has to do with the fact that the North Downs are closer in to London than the Chilterns to the north, and so more hilly territory falls within the Greater London boundary.
BCW | 17.11.17 - 12:49 p.m. | #
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Pretty sure the photo of the road in Croydon is where they shot the bit in the New Year Mr Bean episode when he's out of control of his mini while sat in the armchair on top of it!
Stu | 11.02.19 - 9:40 a.m. | #
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The Mr. Bean episode was filmed in Westwood Park, Forest Hill.
Alan S | 10.09.19 - 9:55 a.m. | #
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