please empty your brain below
Recently back from NW France, where virtually every junction except the very smallest has stripes on the road, akin to a zebra crossing, but without the beacons. We were stunned at how good the French drivers are, at stopping to let pedestrians cross ... much better than in London. It seemed more of a duty, rather than a nice-to-have. Even at the entry/exit to major roundabouts, the traffic stopped willingly for pedestrians. Would love to see this here.

Liz | 20.07.18 - 7:40 a.m. | #

I think the reason TfL doesn’t allow straight across double crossings is the danger that you’ll look at the wrong set of lights and think the crossing is green when your side is red.

dg writes: ...a problem they solve in Paris by positioning a warning sign halfway across. [Pietons Attention Traversez en 2 temps]

Dan | 20.07.18 - 7:49 a.m. | #

A quick glance at the last photo might lead to support for your argument. However it is in fact all westbound traffic at Mile End junction, lane 1 bikes left, ahead and right turn, lane 2 traffic ahead and left, lane 3 traffic right turn, all at different times.
One of the highest pedestrian accident black spots in Tower Hamlets.

scrumpy | 20.07.18 - 8:00 a.m. | #

Good observations. The big difference, to my mind, is that in France (and, I think, many other countries in Europe) it is well-understood that turning traffic must give way to all pedestrians. Although this also appears in the UK highway code (section 170) it is little observed here.

(In section 170 there is a slight let-out: "if they have started to cross").

Malcolm | 20.07.18 - 8:02 a.m. | #

I'm not convinced the "2 temps" sign entirely solves the problem. I can see two red lights in your photo (and a man crossing anyway, presumably because it is clear). Which light should I look at, the far one or the near one? What if the far one is green, but I fail to spot the sign or that the near one is red?

Is it illegal for pedestrians to cross on red in France? Or to cross away from a crossing?

Some place, like the US, seem particularly keen on stopping jaywalking. In others, like Japan, people will dutifully wait at a red light, even if the road is entirely clear. The UK seems to take the view that any new infrastructure must be thoroughly safe to use, even if inconvenient, but you are free to cross at your own risk.

Andrew | 20.07.18 - 8:09 a.m. | #

I wonder if some of this is down to how pedestrian safety is viewed. For a while there was the view that pedestrians must be clearly segregated from traffic to ensure their safety. So we had all these railings installed at junctions. Now, railings, etc., are being removed and the demarcation between road and pavement is blurred. Oxford Circus is a great example of these changes.

I wonder if this whole "stop the whole road of traffic" before crossing came in at a similar time as the railings in a bid to protect pedestrians from traffic.

Jon Jones | 20.07.18 - 8:28 a.m. | #

Pedestrians waiting at a red light even when no vehicles are around happens everywhere. The difference is in its frequency, varying from near-universal (e.g. Norway) through quite common (e.g. Germany), occasional (e.g. UK) to hardly ever (Italy).

Malcolm | 20.07.18 - 8:38 a.m. | #

I almost always cross if the road is empty, regardless of the traffic lights. Only ever obeying if there is a small child waiting with a parent that is trying to teach the Green Cross Code!

I'm hopeful that the eventual move to self-driving cars will encourage a more pedestrian-first approach to all road junctions.

Tom | 20.07.18 - 9:02 a.m. | #

I'd always thought the near-universality of having a pedestrian phase to the lights was a very UK sort of thing. It may exist at particularly busy intersections in other countries, but only here is it common across all cities and towns. I'm not sure it makes all that much of a difference.

One thing I do vastly prefer is that most of Europe doesn't subscribe to the North American tradition of cars being able to turn to their near-side (usually right, but would be left here) on a red signal.

Chz | 20.07.18 - 9:13 a.m. | #

And I do sometimes wonder if the habit I see of pedestrians just stepping out onto the road at junctions with little thought to traffic, is a side effect of so many Europeans living in London who are just used having crossings at each and every corner.

Brad | 20.07.18 - 9:16 a.m. | #

Lots of countries do the "give way when turning". I've seen it in Europe, Russia, Canada and the US. Definitely takes some getting used to and relies on everyone paying attention.

It could easily work here but you have to retrain all the motorists and that could be much easier said than done.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 20.07.18 - 10:18 a.m. | #

Eh, I nearly got splatted in Boston, MA because I "read through" the traffic lights and didn't realise it was a two-stage crossing! So I'm not a huge fan. Where road users have an opportunity to look at a signal they think applies to them but actually doesn't, it's never going to be the safest thing in the world.

Muzer | 20.07.18 - 10:48 a.m. | #

Many of our ped-controlled crossings seem to be the worst of both worlds. You press the button and nothing happens except that the WAIT light illuminates. Eventually there's a gap in the traffic and you cross against the red man.

After a while there's an irritating racket, the green man appears, nobody crosses, and the traffic is held up unnecessarily.

@ Jon Jones

The anti-pedestrian barriers date from an era when peds were considered to be a nuisance that threatened the traffic flow; they had to be constrained and diverted to grudgingly approved crossing places. Thankfully TfL are getting rid of the barriers, but these expensive eyesores are still proliferating elsewhere.

Gerry | 20.07.18 - 12:20 p.m. | #

I prefer the way this works in the UK, where the pedestrian signs are just a suggestion / serve to let you know when it is (or at least is supposed to be) definitely safe to cross. As for other countries, it's part of the charm of travelling to learn how everyday tasks differ. Just be careful.

Hong Kong, outside of the pedestrianised urban areas, seems to be one of the most frustrating places to walk as 1) for 10 months of the year it's really hot and/or wet outdoors; 2) junctions are timed to let cars keep moving as much as possible; 3) it's illegal to cross on red and police sometimes hide near busy crossings to catch you, so people pay more attention to potential hiding spots than to cars.

Vietnam's big cities are probably the most chaotic places for pedestrians I've been to - you just have to go and hope for the best...

John | 20.07.18 - 1:03 p.m. | #

Regardless of a green man or pedestrian only light - you're likely to encounter at least one cyclist that doesn't believe the rules apply to them.

As a pedestrian I find myself far more at risk of a collision with a bike than a motor vehicle - be it on the road or on the pavement.

Cornish Cockney | 20.07.18 - 1:57 p.m. | #

Well said Cornish Cockney. Cyclist are becoming an increasing menace to pedestrians. Not only do they often not obey the rules of the road they now think the pavement is also part of a cycle super highway.

Tones | 20.07.18 - 2:47 p.m. | #

@Andrew Bowden: well *we* officially have "give way when turning". See paragraph 170 of the Highway Code: "watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way" There is even an illustrative photograph.

So a turning vehicle should give way to a pedestrian with a foot on the carriageway (i.e. started to cross).

That said, the cardinal rules apply: expect the other person to do the wrong thing (but hope they don't); do as you would be done by; take even more care if you are going to come off worse in a collision (soft things give way to hard things).

Better to travel well (with hope, and safely) than to arrive.

Andrew | 20.07.18 - 2:48 p.m. | #

Andrew - that's a little bit different to what you get in other countries where they'll give way for you if you're waiting on the crossing. And often where you'll get a green light to cross even if cars are able to turn round.

In my experience, generally drivers do obey paragraph 170. Cos they have to!

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 20.07.18 - 3:34 p.m. | #

I certainly remember times gone by in France where stopping for pedestrians at crossings was anything but obligatory for drivers (even when you'd got a foot on the crossing).
I've been pleasantly surprised on more recent visits how driving manners have improved.

RogerW | 20.07.18 - 4:37 p.m. | #

> Might we ever be trusted enough to see some 2-stage non-staggered crossings in London?

Well page 142 of of the Streetscape Guidance (3rd ed, 2017 rev 1) in TfL’s Streets toolkit distinguishes between light-controlled crossings that are:

  • single stage signal controlled,
  • single stage signal controlled with central refuge,
  • straight across two stage, or
  • two stage staggered.

The “straight across two stage” seems to fit the bill.

I suspect that this is a new flexibility as a result of the law in Great Britain changing in April 2016 when the Zebra, Pelican and Puffin Pedestrian Crossings Regulations and General Directions 1997 (with their references to “staggered crossings”) were replaced by the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (which refer more loosely to crossings with a “refuge for pedestrians”). Staggered routes must be particularly impractical for pedestrian crossings shared with cyclists. But I can’t find any announcements or discussion about such a relaxation. The old law continues to apply to pre-existing crossings.

Rich G | Homepage | 20.07.18 - 11:36 p.m. | #

I was told by a colleague who works in highways that accident stats show that zebras are safer for peds than signalised crossings. Zebras lead to more vehicle shunts. I'd like to know how many accidents happen at these 2 stage crossings. Our nearest equivalent in UK is where you have a pedestrian island and 2 independent green man crossings on separate phases. Here though the lights are louvered to stop 'see through' where peds might mistake the signal on the far side of the road as applying to them.

SJM | 20.07.18 - 11:38 p.m. | #

...and I have problems with those louvres when I can't distinguish the colour of the next light because the slats have been adjusted for a subtly different position, which isn't quite where my eyes are located.

For example, on the crossing when I'm walking between Euston Square and Euston stations.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 20.07.18 - 11:46 p.m. | #

I can think of one two stage straight-through crossing (also on the fringes of the Olympic Park), though it does have a particularly wide central reservation.

https://goo.gl/maps/DXMmHU7zqFR2

As for pedestrian guardrails: their removal came about because cyclists can get crushed against them, which was considered more of a risk than free-range pedestrians.

martin | 22.07.18 - 10:00 a.m. | #











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