please empty your brain below
I drive a ten year old diesel car. I am definitely in the income bracket you think should be able to afford to replace it. But I'm not going to because I still like the car, and it's still, touch wood, reliable, and brand new cars are an expensive luxury, depreciating rapidly, and also, the marginal pollution gains would be more than offset by the pollution caused by manufacture.

Fortunately, I am never going to drive in to London.

Ian | 28.11.22 - 8:42 a.m. | #

As is normally the case when Sadiq Khan says, does or announces something, the vast majority of people getting angry about it are people on social media who live nowhere near London and never visit London anyway.

Charlie | 28.11.22 - 9:00 a.m. | #

Vehicles over 40 years old are excluded, so buy an old diesel - provided it's not used for commercial purposes, that has to be 50 years old.

Still Anon | 28.11.22 - 9:02 a.m. | #

I wonder why the M11 will be excluded, but not the M1 or M4. What about the M3, as that will also penetrate the extended zone?

dg writes: The M3 is not in London.

Alan S | 28.11.22 - 9:06 a.m. | #

"If you drive daily then £12.50 a day is £4500 a year"

So why not allow residents to use the £12.50 as a (mandatory) deposit towards a replacement car, reclaimable when the car is scrapped (not sold, only scrapped)

MilesT | 28.11.22 - 9:08 a.m. | #

I'm in the same boat as Ian - except I visit Havering several times a year. I guess I'm going to have to take it as a £25 'visit tax' and not use my car while I am down there. £150 a year is a lot less than upgrading it would cost me.

mark addy | 28.11.22 - 9:09 a.m. | #

"...but I still doubt that's what's going to kill me".

It almost certainly isn't. But that's not really the point. Most health precautions suffer this effect. If something will prevent one death in 1000 of some group (or any other small fraction) then it's worth considering, even though the other 99.9 per cent will die of something else, and we cannot put a name to the one who will be saved.

Malcolm of Kent | 28.11.22 - 9:15 a.m. | #

I think your antepenultimate point should be extended to those making similar comments on news sites and social media.

Tim | 28.11.22 - 9:24 a.m. | #

Amen to the above. Zone 5 neighbourhood Facebook group is just wall to wall ranting right now. With very little actual comprehension of the scheme.

Chz | 28.11.22 - 9:39 a.m. | #

I read that in the consultation, 80% of those who responded were against. I wonder what is the point of on-line consultations with self-selected respondents; I've always been very dubious about them but if you have one, how can you ignore such a definite result? (I responded in favour.)

Tony | 28.11.22 - 9:48 a.m. | #

Still Anon: There were barely any diesel cars on the market in 1982. The ones that are still roadworthy are probably measured in single digits and owned by collectors.

Putting filthy truck engines in passenger cars only became widespread in the 90s and 00s. Which is pretty much how we got here.

Graham | 28.11.22 - 9:51 a.m. | #

I have an eight year old diesel. Would love to replace it and hey I could - with another petrol or diesel. But really I don't want to buy another petrol or diesel car. I want my next one to be electric but WOWSER HAVE YOU SEEN THE PRICES?!

Given my car usage is about five short round trips a week, I have decided to keep my eight year old diesel running for a few more years in the hope prices come down.

Anyway, I don't live in London, and would never drive into Greater London anyway, so won't be affected.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 28.11.22 - 9:53 a.m. | #

The new ULEZ zone around the M25 off ramps for Staines and especially the "double back" off ramp for Windsor and Egham looks very marginal with the potential to catch drivers out.

Rick | 28.11.22 - 9:56 a.m. | #

Did I read somewhere that the expansion of the ULEZ was a request from DfT in exchange for Covid support of TfL?

Chosen of course because of central government’s care for air quality rather than an attempt to push an unpopular policy onto a key figure from the other side of the political divide.

TomH | 28.11.22 - 10:10 a.m. | #

This is the Mayor of London who in one breath preaches about air pollution and its effects while authorising the building of the Silvertown Tunnel.

Les Savine | Homepage | 28.11.22 - 10:25 a.m. | #

Les, your opposition to the Silvertown Tunnel on the grounds of pollution is a total non-starter. The tunnel will be built to last hundred(s) of years - polluting vehicles will be dead within 30, and probably sooner.

Sparks | 28.11.22 - 10:31 a.m. | #

There is always the option of selling the car to someone who doesn’t want to drive into these zones, which would in many cases raise more the scrappage allowances.

Kev | 28.11.22 - 10:33 a.m. | #

I'm in favour - but as well as seeing cleaner vehicles I would prefer to see fewer vehicles! Those 3 months in 2020 was absolute heaven!

Things are a lot better now compared to when I was a child! Not only were you breathing in stinking fumes from buses & taxis wherever you went, the petrol was leaded too!
I bet most readers will remember 'black snot' after a day in Central London!

Cornish Cockney | 28.11.22 - 10:33 a.m. | #

At present, the charge for petrol engines is for engines which are not Euro 4 compliant. Expect that to change to Euro 5 or 6 when when the revenue stream declines. TFL is looking for revenue streams outside of Council Tax.

coffin dodger | 28.11.22 - 10:39 a.m. | #

Changing the thresholds purely to bring in revenue wouldn’t stand up in court. Believe it or not the mayor can’t just do what he likes to screw over motorists.

The existing ULEZ policy is what it is because NOx levels are illegally high and the Euro levels chosen correspond to significant drops in allowable NOx emissions. You’d need to make a similarly solid case for the the benefits of increasing the thresholds, and I don’t know if you could.

Graham | 28.11.22 - 11:06 a.m. | #

Another key issue is the impact on people and businesses right on the edge of London, where a new artificial divide will separate communities just inside and outside London. Crayford in Bexley runs straight into Dartford in Kent for example.

Mikey C | 28.11.22 - 11:11 a.m. | #

Alan S
Motorways are not under the control of TfL. The apparently inconsistent approach between the motorways seems to depend on where the last junction is at which you can double back. Thus M1 at London Gateway Services, M4 at Junction 3. On the M11, there is no opportunity to double back inside the M25, so the first roundabout you reach on the North Circular (in either direction) is the limit.
Similar "easements" exist on the boundary of the existing zone - notably that the boundary, normally defined by the North & South Circular Roads, does not end where the M4 crosses the boundary (on the Chiswick Flyover) but continues to the next roundabout.

Timbo | 28.11.22 - 11:54 a.m. | #

The environmental cost of replacing a car should also be considered especially given how much more energy the manufacturing of an electric car requires. There's also the issue of tiny particles from the tyres of the heavier electric vehicles. As I understand it there's still not enough scientific evidence on that one to say if it's going to be the unexpected side effect but some groups are worried. I think I'll keep driving my 55 year old Morris Minor for now.

ap | 28.11.22 - 12:29 p.m. | #

I've noted Graham's comment to use to counter some of the venom being directed at the Mayor. I suspect they will not listen though.

JohnC | 28.11.22 - 12:42 p.m. | #

I take your point Graham, but if all the pre Euro 4 cars are pushed off the road, where will the income stream come from to run the camera network?

coffin dodger | 28.11.22 - 1:03 p.m. | #

I think the anger is well founded given the majority of people consulted were against. What is the point in consulting if the responses to the consultation is completely ignored? It was clearly only done because they were required to consult not because TFL cared in the slightest what the responses were.

Clare Lee | 28.11.22 - 1:15 p.m. | #

If the Mayor can do this why can't he do something about introducing rent control?

Marmaduke Jinks | 28.11.22 - 3:12 p.m. | #

Various people I know who are most likely to be affected by this live a few miles outside Greater London and drive in for shopping, church etc. Ironically it will cost no more to pay the charge than it would for 2 or more travelling together to use the (infrequent, unreliable and never after 8pm) bus instead.

Andrew S | 28.11.22 - 5:00 p.m. | #

re "Selling the car on"

There is the potential for the double whammy of non-ULEZ compatible car prices declining due to oversupply and ULEZ compatible used cars having increased prices due to demand, and used cars already costing more due to supply shortages of new cars at the moment, also other cities are implementing LEZ/congestion schemes.

MilesT | 28.11.22 - 5:56 p.m. | #

I am not sure "...cars hitting things kill far more people..." is necessarily true: air pollution in London apparently causes c. 4000 deaths a year. Deaths in vehicle collisions in London is about 100 a year. What the latter has is the identifiable victim effect - the deaths are more obvious and visceral. Tim Harford's podcast "Cautionary Tales" has a good episode on deaths following Fukushima illustrating this phenomenon.

andrew | 28.11.22 - 6:05 p.m. | #

Rck - not sure what you mean re the M25 Egham/Windsor exit as the zone stops short of Stanwell and is nowhere near that M25 section on their map

Felix | 28.11.22 - 6:06 p.m. | #

I am one of the 17% using a van. I work mostly in Herts and South Bucks but alas live one mile inside greater London. Not yet seen any of those suitably compliant vehicles for sale at £4500 so I guess I will have to keep my polluter on the road and pass the cost on to my customers.

Cottonsocks | 28.11.22 - 6:25 p.m. | #

Sparks, a tunnel built for rubber-tyred vehicles is ipso facto going to cause an increase in particulate pollution, which is also deadly, and shifting to heavier electric cars will make that worse.

Lmm | 29.11.22 - 4:22 a.m. | #

The curious boundary of the LEZ and new ULEZ does indeed skip big sections of Chingford. I’ve been told that this is to allow lorries to be able to skirt the zone without paying the fee.

It seems very odd that Zone 5 suburban houses escape the Zone while in other places the new Zone goes deep into the countryside.

This begs the related question, is Chingford the most central place where London stops?

dg writes: no.

Dan | 29.11.22 - 7:17 a.m. | #

As I've said before, consultations are not referendums. Their purpose should be to identify impacts of the proposed scheme that have not been considered in their development. This gives the opportunity to amend the scheme if necessary or mitigate those impacts.

kerspatula | 29.11.22 - 7:34 a.m. | #

No-one in their right mind would set up an 'income stream' that is easily avoided by complying with the rules - over time income will rapidly reduce.

Less vehicles on the road would be an improvement, too - more LTNs and blanket 20mph limits would help (the average speed in London is less than 12mph, a 20mph limit makes little difference - and many boroughs have already imposed that). I drive a fair bit in an LTN-equipped area and have not noticed a real issue.

Most of the opprobrium directed at Khan has nasty, racial undertones (whatever it is he is accused of doing).

I will change my car, as it is non-compliant. I am fortunate to be able to do so.

Steve | 29.11.22 - 7:56 a.m. | #

"Most of the opprobrium directed at Khan has nasty, racial undertones (whatever it is he is accused of doing)."

Indeed. I am not his biggest supporter, by any means, but I feel compelled to defend the Mayor against the all too common blatantly racist attacks.

Chz | 29.11.22 - 8:12 a.m. | #

Thanks dg! I should have guessed that you and Ollie O’Brian would have already worked it out. Interesting reading!

Dan | 29.11.22 - 6:53 p.m. | #

Coffin dodger, if all the pre-Euro 4 cars are pushed off the road, you will no longer need cameras to police the ULEZ.

JohnC | 29.11.22 - 7:58 p.m. | #

its pollution from all sources but cars are an easy target to get revenue from. The Mayor cant tax Wood Burners or Aviation or River traffic

Andrew Jarman | 01.12.22 - 12:03 a.m. | #

19 year old diesel, continually passing its MOT. And now somehow it is better to build a new car (with multi month delivery times), along with the associated emission costs.

What was the point of the consultation?

Jordan D | 01.12.22 - 1:11 a.m. | #











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