please empty your brain below
How much extra did making the tunnel double-decker friendly cost? Or do tunnels already need to be this big for the lorries?

Dan | 17.11.22 - 7:08 a.m. | #

I’ve just seen that they are going to charge motorists for using both the Silvertown tunnel and the existing Blackwell tunnel when the new tunnel opens.

dg writes: announced in 2014.

Brian | 17.11.22 - 7:45 a.m. | #

I understand (from my grandfather telling me in the mid-1950s) that London Transport had a specific double-deck bus type (presumably lower) that could negotiate the Blackwall Tunnel.
My interest in buses and their numbering waned in about 1963 but I'd be interested to know if that's accurate.

dg writes: yes.

Rob Gullen | 17.11.22 - 8:01 a.m. | #

Modern vehicles are wider, so have to be nearer the side of the tunnel, making the northbound tunnel too tight for double deckers I imagine.

Indeed that the incredibly tight and twisty Victorian tunnel is the only northbound road crossing in the area is a hopeless state of affairs.

Mikey C | 17.11.22 - 9:00 a.m. | #

I assume these buses are all going to be electric, not fossil-burners?

dg writes: yes

Alex McKenna | 17.11.22 - 9:00 a.m. | #

Tunnel buses had more dome-shaped roofs, to fit better in the tunnel with its circular cross-section.

Malcolm of Kent | 17.11.22 - 9:00 a.m. | #

Will three miles between bus stops be the longest gap in London?

dg writes: no.

Ed | 17.11.22 - 9:12 a.m. | #

How can you have half a bus an hour, or is this as I suspect a statistical anomaly?

dg writes: no.

Adrian | 17.11.22 - 9:19 a.m. | #

I'm not a south east Londoner but I'm suprised they haven't gone for a Kidbrooke option since thousands of new homes appear to have shot up in the area. Maybe there are plenty of other similar developments but I keep hearing about "Kidbrooke Village".

ap | 17.11.22 - 10:07 a.m. | #

You can't have half a bus an hour, but you can have one bus every two hours (or 15 in two hours to make 7.5 /hour)

The special "Tunnel" NS type buses continued to have solid rubber tyres long after pneumatics were in general use, because of the constant rubbing on the kerbs. The NSs were replaced by modified STLs in 1937 (with reinforced tyre walls), and they remained until the tunnel itself was modified in 1953 to take standard RTs. I remember going through the tunnel on one.
The original tunnel, now the northbound, was again modified in 1968 to widen the carriageway by raising the floor, but this precluded the use of double deckers.

Timbo | 17.11.22 - 10:09 a.m. | #

The 129 looks like a DLR rail replacement bus.

Neither the 129 nor X239 serve Canning Town Bus station.

Still Anon | 17.11.22 - 10:11 a.m. | #

Adrian 7.5 buses an hour is simply a bus every 8 minutes, just as a bus every 7.5 minutes is 8 buses an hour.

Lorenzo | 17.11.22 - 10:31 a.m. | #

Planning conditions seem a good idea but this one may be counterproductive if usage genuinely doesn't warrant that many buses. TfL will end up wasting money that could be better spent on other routes.

Andrew S | 17.11.22 - 10:40 a.m. | #

A public transport dangleway replacement already exists; Jubilee Line from North Greenwich to Canning Town , then DLR towards Beckton. I used to do this journey every day. The time lost interchanging between bus, tube and DLR added to the frustration of the journey. But it was quicker and cheaper than the Dangleway. A single bus only journey would be much cheaper than the bus/tube/dlr route.

Boneyboy | 17.11.22 - 10:42 a.m. | #

TfL seem to have no logical policy on express buses. The 140 gets one, but other important suburban trunk routes do not. The X26 was a descendant of the Green Line network - but no other former coach services got the same treatment in Greater London. The X68 was a product of the London Buses districts, where local managers were able to experiment with ‘commercial’ services (not all tickets were originally accepted) - the 607 was different in that all tickets and passes were valid from the off.

Kim | 17.11.22 - 10:45 a.m. | #

The 238 used to wander near the under-construction north portal. Maybe that's one of the rationales that TfL plans to use 239 as the new route's number.

Patrickov | 17.11.22 - 11:07 a.m. | #

DLR etc. is not an exact replacement for a bus, so that's an unhelpful exclusion. In peak the journey pairs excluded are likely to be more expensive than a bus fare. Also non-London concessionary passes can't be used on non-bus journeys.

What will be the cycling provision for the Silvertown tunnel? Blackwall doesn't allow cycles.

dg writes: nor will Silvertown.

Other countries enable carriage of bikes (often on the outside of the bus on a carrier on front or back); maybe the new express bus should do this unless a dedicated transport is provided.

MilesT | 17.11.22 - 12:38 p.m. | #

Is it really fourteen years since the demise of the 239? I am getting old.

Jonathan Wadman | 17.11.22 - 12:48 p.m. | #

Baffling that the often overcrowded and stuck in traffic 108 will continue to use Blackwall rather than Silvertown with its bus lanes... one of many things to say in a consultation response!

James Scantlebury | 17.11.22 - 1:15 p.m. | #

I'm not going to get my crayons out to suggest what they could have done instead but it does seem a little strange that there's no proposed link between the bus stations at Canning Town & North Greenwich. Even though that route is duplicated by the Jubilee line, it's no good for people using the hopper fare.

X-Plaistow | 17.11.22 - 1:22 p.m. | #

If I was going to introduce a brand new bus route, with an express section, linking up places north & south of the river for the first time, X239 is just the sort of catchy number I'd come up. Of course I would. I'd probably not bother with route branding or marketing either.

Paul | 17.11.22 - 6:47 p.m. | #

Agreed James, it makes no sense for the 108 to stay horrendously slow and unreliable.

Mikey C | 18.11.22 - 12:50 a.m. | #

X239 might have to be slightly tweaked at Canary Wharf and Grove Park significantly, TFL wouldn't propose the 239 which no doubt confused more easily and find it harder to have a new routes since May 12 1990 - 16 Feburary 2008 then was discontinued after 170 extension. New 239 Benefits of this route to gain a bus service with links to new areas of Greenford Westway Cross Retail Park - Ruislip via Greenford Road, Whitton Ave W, Alexandra Avenue, Eastcote Ln, Kings Road, Rayners Lane, Marsh Road, Cuckoo Hill, Field End Rd, Elm Ave and Pembroke Road left unserved. Extend 278 to Hume Way (Bus Stand).

AK333 | Homepage | 02.04.23 - 6:10 p.m. | #

Imagine if '239' would bring a new route from Sydenham - Blackheath Shooters Hill Road, Sun-in-the-Sands (New Stand) follow by 'SL4' to an areas are completely unserved in Lennard Road, Kings Hall Road, Bridge Road, Copers Cope Road, Bellingham Road and Hazelbank Road. When TfL propose 'X239' that confuse mentally with lower 200 range then to change Superloop between SL1-10 via Westwood Hill, Newlands Park, Lennard Road, Kings Hall Road, Bridge Road, Copers Cope Road, Southend Road, Beckenham Hill Road, Bromley Road, Bellingham Road, Hazelbank Road, Verdant Lane, South Circular Road, Burnt Ash Hill, Lee Road, Royal Parade, Prince of Wales Road and Shooters Hill Road. Lawrie Park Gardens has bus stands in Sydenham.

AK334 | 16.02.24 - 2:21 a.m. | #











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