please empty your brain below
Camberwell may not appear on the tube map, but Denmark Hill, with its many services to Central London, is only a short walk away.

I agree that Old Kent Road is the likely winner here.

Dan | 01.10.14 - 7:32 a.m. | #

I feel however that a direct service to London and the West End may be more of an appeal to current passengers using Denmark Hill.

I am suprised though about there only being two stations between Elephant and Castle and New Cross Gate. If going via Peckham Rye surely there should be stops at Walworth and Queen's Road?

Rotherhithe | 01.10.14 - 7:59 a.m. | #

^^ That would be down to the cost of stations, especially with accessibility regulations and all the other gubbins (platform-edge doors etc.) that are likely to be standard if and when this extension is ever built.

Hayes via OKR for me please with a side order of Camberwell station on Thameslink.

THC | 01.10.14 - 8:08 a.m. | #

A good time for a pleasant little tune. In the second picture at West Hampstead I can see the Express Dairy depot in the background. Got my first job there in 1972.
Enjoy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a5Qxkerx8Q

Bernie | 01.10.14 - 9:38 a.m. | #

@Rotherhithe
"I feel however that a direct service to London and the West End may be more of an appeal to current passengers using Denmark Hill."

Denmark Hill won't have to wait fifteen years for those: at the time of writing there will be trains to both Blackfriars and Victoria within the next fifteen minutes.

Don't be misled by the Tube Map.

timbo | 01.10.14 - 10:36 a.m. | #

Now I know I know you. And I know how you write. And you write many brilliant things on your blog.

But "plus the Old Kent Road in Monopoly is brown, QED", made me spit my breakfast with laughter all over my screen and I've just had to got and get some wet wipes to clear up the detritus. :-)

Geofftech | Homepage | 01.10.14 - 11:25 a.m. | #

IIRC, there is already a tunnel from E&C to Camberwell, which is where the Bakerloo trains are actually parked. I saw the "proposed extension" in a really old tube map in the disused Aldwych station. Apparently the tunnel and tracks got built, but the station was never opened. So Camberwell might have been proposed (or might even be chosen) on the grounds of the tunnel being already there.

Javier | 01.10.14 - 11:40 a.m. | #

The Battersea Power Station "development" will also get the "attention" of the RiverBus service with a new pier. I would not be surprised if TfL is "encouraged" to extend the (for now) shiny new 24hr route24 buses across the river.

Working Class Hero | 01.10.14 - 11:56 a.m. | #

I hope they can come up with better names than Old Kent Road 1 and Old Kent Road 2. I do support this although being selfish I usually get on the Bakerloo line at Waterloo and it is nice now because the trains are rarely crowded as they have only stopped at two previous stops. I suspect when (or if) it is extended to South London, that will change.

Jon Combe | 01.10.14 - 12:50 p.m. | #

@Jon Combe

Old Kent Road and New Kent Road?

Briantist | Homepage | 01.10.14 - 12:57 p.m. | #

Albany Road and Peckham Park Road?

North Camberwell and North Peckham?

@Javier
I recall reading about this, but I don't think the tunnel goes very far -certainly not as far as the over-run tunnels at Charing Cross, which reach almost to Waterloo Bridge.
http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/thread/24028/original-tunnel-alignment-elephant-castle

| 01.10.14 - 1:55 p.m. | #

For Javier- the over-run tunnels at Elephant do point toward Camberwell but are only a train length and a bit long. Not only was there no money for a conventional extension in the 1950s but that part of the geology is solid rock and the cost of blasting/cutting through it then was astronomic (if something subterranean can reach the sky) compared to nice easy clay-boring for other lines like those north of the Thames.

The 'clever' aspect of this consultation is to draw attention away from the other, earlier option put up or extending the Bakerloo, making this a potential CrossRail 3 instead of meeting the needs of existing inner Sarf londoners.

Other issues - (1) severe curves on the current Line prevent newer trains of longer (now standard length) carriages being run, (2) the Line can't support the projected passenger numbers without major central London rebuild, which of course TfL knows. So where's the other part of the plan, to increase capacity?

Joel | 01.10.14 - 3:23 p.m. | #

Timbo, yes you might be able to go from Denmark Hill to Blackfriers or Victoria but I wouldn't class either of those station as West End!

Jon | 01.10.14 - 5:58 p.m. | #

@Jon
Not sure quite where you consider the "West End" to be but certainly I would have thought that the terminus of the Crystal Palace and West End Extension Railway was not far away.

timbo | 01.10.14 - 9:11 p.m. | #

Awww... and there was me thinking we were in for a rendition of Bernie, the fastest milkman in the west

RogerW | 02.10.14 - 12:00 a.m. | #

Roger, nice one!

Bernie | 02.10.14 - 12:04 a.m. | #

The situation at Woolwich is made worse, I believe, by the fact that Berkley Homes are only paying for one entrance to the station to provide direct access to their development and not an extra one on the other side of the station to benefit the rest of Woolwich.

Whiff | 02.10.14 - 2:30 a.m. | #

I don't understand the logic in "Lewisham is the extension's key target, so why go further? It also marks the point where the line would come out of tunnel and run overground, so stopping here would save plenty of money".

Building an overground line is a lot cheaper than building a line in a tunnel. Hence while stopping at Lewisham would save some money, it wouldn't relatively save plenty of money. The comment would make more sense if Lewisham marked the point at which the railway switched from being overground to needing to go into tunnel (which it doesn't).

Regards

zin92 | 02.10.14 - 6:32 a.m. | #

@zin92
They would not even have to build the line beyond Lewisham - it's already there. Just need to add a negative electric rail and modify the platforms to take the smaller trains.

Indeed, one of the reasons for the scheme is to reduce the number of different branch lines feeding into the bottleneck between Lewisham and New Cross trains.

timbo | 02.10.14 - 8:05 a.m. | #

I think the problems of the central Bakerloo section are what makes it unlikely to go past Lewisham. On top of that, it's been established quite well with the Thameslink works that people are interested in new journey options, but not at the expense of their existing ones. Very few people on the Hayes line would be thrilled to ride the Bakerloo in the morning, so who does it benefit?

Bromley might be interesting instead, but you'd have to clear up capacity in the centre.

Chz | 02.10.14 - 8:50 a.m. | #

*Fantasy mode engaged*

How about ending the Bakerloo at New Cross Gate to meet up with an Overground route to Bromley? They can nuke the useless service to New Cross (or make it a shuttle to Surrey Quays) to free up the capacity up to Highbury and beyond.

Short bit of full-sized tunnel to Lewisham, but no further works are needed beyond that to take Overground trains besides however the heck they plan to get into Bromley town centre.

Chz | 02.10.14 - 8:54 a.m. | #

Why do you say the Overground service to New Cross is "useless". I'm sure SER travellers to the East End would disagree. Operationally as well, it is useful to have somewhere to turn back independant of SR problems but with an interchange.

timbo | 02.10.14 - 6:04 p.m. | #

It survives, for the time being, because the capacity exists in the central portion of the route and it's useful to run the maximum number of trains that they can through there. The moment there are extra paths via NXG or another branch is in the offering, a one-stop branch line is not a useful way to spend core capacity. Even if it was well-used, which it's not. The only question is whether it dies or becomes a shuttle service - there is room at Surrey Quays for it.

See also: Mill Hill East, Chesham, Windsor Central, etc, etc. Perhaps a few through trains in the peaks?

Chz | 03.10.14 - 9:39 a.m. | #

Anything that improves the poor transport system on the hayes southeastern line has got to be good!

Dotty | 04.10.14 - 11:32 a.m. | #

Nuke New Cross? WHAT

Al B | Homepage | 07.04.23 - 6:42 p.m. | #

YOU NUKE NEW CROSS
YOU NUKE LONDON

Al B | Homepage | 07.04.23 - 6:44 p.m. | #











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