dg comments

please empty your brain below

It high time that the 1p & 2p coins are finished with. And how long will we be waiting for £10, £20 notes to be plastic?

Grumpy Anon | 28.03.17 - 1:45 a.m. | #

6 facts about the old and new one pound coins
£4) The old one pound coin was 70% copper, 5.5% nickel and 24.5% zinc. The composition of the new one pound coin hasn't been specifically specified (has it?).

“a standard composition (excluding the nickel plate) of seventy-six per centum copper, four per centum nickel and twenty per centum zinc”
– Proclamation of 10 February 2016

dg writes: Updated, thanks!

Rich | 28.03.17 - 1:48 a.m. | #

Prince Charles will be known as King George, no?

Jimmy | 28.03.17 - 5:17 a.m. | #

Anyone up for bets on when it is worth less than a euro?

Sprout Eater | 28.03.17 - 7:14 a.m. | #

How highly ironic that we adopt a Euro look-a-like Pound a couple of days before the day we enact an historic act of self-harm.

Frank F | 28.03.17 - 7:30 a.m. | #

All patents are published - "letters patent" are open letters.

So isn't "top secret patented ....Feature" an oxymoron?

timbo | 28.03.17 - 7:45 a.m. | #

Doesn't the new £1 coin have some feature that gives off a unique electronic signature when scanned?

Happily ditch the 1p and 2p coins - don't these cost more to make than their face value?

Still anon | 28.03.17 - 7:49 a.m. | #

@Grumpy Anon,

£10 - about 6 months
£20 - about 18 months

@Sprout Eater,

Never.

@Frank F,

Oh, shut up. Why is everything about the EU?

As if the €1 was the first bimetallic coin anyway.

@Still anon,

Why does it matter whether it costs more to make than its face value? Coins are meant to be used over and over again.

If it is the case that the majority of 1p and 2p coins actually get thrown away into the bin, and never returned to a bank, then yes, costing more than face value to mint would be a valid reason to get rid of them (but it might also be a valid reason to just make them smaller or more cheaply).

But it is not the case that every 1p and 2p coin is used only once, otherwise we would only ever get new shiny ones and never see anything with a year earlier than 2014.

A valid reason to get rid of them is that the costs of time needed to deal with these coins outweigh the benefits to the economy from being able to make exact change rather than rounding. This is difficult to quantify.

But, if the existence of 1p and 2p coins is harmful to the economy, then we should get rid of them even if they cost 0.1p each to mint!

John (not the same John) | 28.03.17 - 8:08 a.m. | #

I guess the "unique electronic signature" will come in useful as (another) means of tracking us?

Working Class Hero | 28.03.17 - 8:09 a.m. | #

I had always hoped that we would be using Euros, doubt if we ever will now.

John | 28.03.17 - 8:31 a.m. | #

Yes, timbo, the point of a patent is that you get a temporary monopoly of your invention, but the quid pro quo is that you publish the details of your invention. To get the protection you need to make the public disclosure. So I don't see how a patented security feature can also be top secret.

Andrew | 28.03.17 - 8:33 a.m. | #

Presumably there are lots of different patents for security features published, but it's top secret _which_ one they've chosen to use.

| 28.03.17 - 8:48 a.m. | #

timbo & Andrew:

Maybe there is a portfolio of patented security features and they are using one of them without disclosing which one...

commonliner | 28.03.17 - 8:53 a.m. | #

We do seem to have a lot of changes to our cash in this country.
When I was young we had Farthing, Halfpenny, Penny, Threepenny bit, Sixpence, Shilling, Two shilling, and Half a Crown coins. Ten Shilling, One pound and five pound notes.
The ten pound note came along in 1963. (although it had been used in the past before my time).
The old £5 notes were huge, you may see them sometimes in old films.
Then all change with decimal currency.
Of course there are also notes issued by Scotland.
Compared the some countries, say the US of A we seem to change our cash notes and coins frequently.
I still wish we had gone over to Euros.

John | 28.03.17 - 8:56 a.m. | #

Reading the comments today is like sitting in the corner of a pub listening to the old men grumbling.

Bainbridge | 28.03.17 - 9:02 a.m. | #

@Bainbridge: Isn't it most days..?

If we were as you describe, @John (not the same John) would be sat alone, wearing my pint!

Frank F | 28.03.17 - 9:25 a.m. | #

A fun and timely posting.

When, if ever, the pound will be worth less than the Euro is intrinsically unknowable.

If there was any method better than guesswork of predicting future currency movements, that method would be incorporated in the choices of players in the money markets, which would cancel out the knowledge.

If the movement of the pound/euro rate is treated as a random walk, then maths indicates that for any given value (such as 1.0) it would one day hit that value. But of course one or other currency may disappear first.

Malcolm | 28.03.17 - 9:30 a.m. | #

John(not the same John) -nice to have a popular name.
I think that plastic or other types of electronic payment will replace cash in many developed countries.
No more heavy coins making holes in my pocket.
I am waiting for the pound to drop below the Euro as I have money in a Spanish bank(Euros) and will transfer it when the pound drops low.

John | 28.03.17 - 9:38 a.m. | #

Ooh! I shall start looking out for them today! For some reason I thought it wasn't happening until May.

Love a good list of facts - thanks. I can now astound my teens with a stream of "Did you know's..." over dinner, which will please them no end!!

Cornish Cockney | 28.03.17 - 9:42 a.m. | #

It's bigger and thicker than a Euro anyway. No comment about that massive 24 carat coin that was nicked in Germany a few days ago?

Uncle Audrey | 28.03.17 - 10:21 a.m. | #

With the older 1p and 2p coins (before 1992), which were bronze, there have been occasions when the scrap value has been higher than the face value.

Still anon | 28.03.17 - 10:29 a.m. | #

Getting rid of 1p and 2p would cause inflation to rise more quickly as goods would be rounded up. I bought a loaf of bread the other day for £1.47, so they're still useful.

Running_Correspondent | 28.03.17 - 10:36 a.m. | #

@Not the same John
1p and 2p coins were becoming worth more as scrap than their face value, which is why since 1992 they have been made of copper-plated steel rather than solid bronze. (5p and 10p coins also went from cupro-nickel alloy to nickel-plated steel in 2010).

@Sprout eater

The closest the pound and Euro have been to parity so far was on 29/12/08, when a Euro was worth 97.86p

@John
Changes in coinage have always been with us. The sovereign was replaced by the £1 note when we came of the gold standard in 1931. The 12-sided 3d bit was introduced in 1937, although the silver ones were also produced alongside them until 1945. I was surprised to discover that farthings were still legal tender in my lifetime (abolished 1961). The old halfpenny was abolished in 1969.

Since decimalisation we have had
the introduction of the 20p (1982), introduction of the £1 coin (1983), abolition of the new halfpenny (1984),
reduction in size of the 5p and 10p (1992)
reduction in size of 50p (1997),
and, most recently the new £2 (1998).

So the new £1 is the first visible change to the coinage for 19 years, a post-WW1 record.

timbo | 28.03.17 - 10:51 a.m. | #

@running correspondent

Not necessarily. Something priced at £1.99 would be just as likely to be repriced at £1.95 if you abolished coppers.

timbo | 28.03.17 - 10:53 a.m. | #

The unround 50p and 20p are nevertheless shapes of constant width (you can roll them between two parallel rulers). Twelve-sided coins (with all 12 sides the same length) cannot have this property, because 12 is an even number, so the rulers will judder.

Rulers juddering may be a good thing, perhaps.

Malcolm | 28.03.17 - 11:57 a.m. | #

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the one thing I've been wondering about, which is shopping trolleys and shopping trolley tokens.

When are they changing over?

dg writes: See the last link in the post.

the orange one | 28.03.17 - 12:07 p.m. | #

Hasn't anyone heard of Swedish rounding, which is also used in Australia, and for that matter, the eurozone countries of Ireland, Finland and the Netherlands (and Belgium but it isn't working that well)

Getting rid of 1p and 2p coins just means that cash payments are rounded to the nearest 5p. There's no need to reprice anything.

You'd only pay £1.45 cash for the bread loaf costing £1.47, but if you bought two for £2.94, you'd have to pay £2.95.

If we also get rid of the 5p coin, we can just use one decimal place. New Zealand has done this, but it still prices things down to the single cent.

Hong Kong has gone to 1 decimal place only, but their currency unit is a tenth of the pound, so it doesn't count. But only the only places where you use 10c and 20c coins are McDonalds (and the like), supermarkets and buses.

John the third | 28.03.17 - 12:27 p.m. | #

"You'd only pay £1.45 cash for the bread loaf costing £1.47, but if you bought two for £2.94, you'd have to pay £2.95."

Er, no: you'd buy two at £1.45 = £2.90.

Well I would!

David | 28.03.17 - 12:31 p.m. | #

"Something priced at £1.99 would be just as likely to be repriced at £1.95 if you abolished coppers."

You don't REALLY believe that, do you?

David | 28.03.17 - 12:34 p.m. | #

Actually timbo the 'new' 5p was introduced in 1990.

daveid | 28.03.17 - 12:41 p.m. | #

I actively use 10c coins (in fact I just used one to go home) because the bus route I usually travel on charges me HK$8.1 per trip.

On a side note, a taxi trip between the two same places charges exactly 10 times of it.

Patrickov | 28.03.17 - 1:27 p.m. | #

@david
Prices are so often £X.99 for a reason, (and before that 19s 11d etc), and if the smallest coin becomes 5p instead of 1p, that reason will cause such prices to still be £X-minus-(the smallest coin of the realm)

timbo | 28.03.17 - 2:00 p.m. | #

The nameless person might buy two loaves in 2 separate transactions a few times, on principle. But soon he or she would soon not be bothering, to save 5p. The reason such rounding works in the countries mentioned is that the sums involved (gained or lost) are so trivial.

As for the impact on prices and inflation, the expert opinion seems to be along the lines of "nobody knows".

Malcolm | 28.03.17 - 2:30 p.m. | #

"Old one pound coins will be melted down to help make new one pound coins"

I wonder what sort of "helping" is meant here. Is this a guarantee that the metals coming from the melting pot will be segregated, and will not find their way into torches and bells and other non-monetary items? Or does it just mean "we are not going to put them in the landfill".

Malcolm | 28.03.17 - 2:42 p.m. | #

I expect shops wouldn't sell things for X.X2 or X.X7 with that rounding mechanism anyway.

Things would be priced X.X0, X.X3, X.X4, X.X5, X.X8, X.X9 - note how they're either exact, or round up.

So you'd buy 3 loaves of bread at 1.39 to get a total of 4.17, to save 2p.

Sykobee | 28.03.17 - 4:07 p.m. | #

The coins will be melted down, separated into Copper, Nickel and Zinc during that process, and then be used to build new coins in slightly different ratios.

It's effectively a cheaper source of metal than buying it in anew.

Sykobee | 28.03.17 - 4:09 p.m. | #

one reason for pricing of say $4.99 is to ensure the transaction goes through the till, to get the 1p change. With an article price of £5, the shop assistant MIGHT be tempted to simply hand over the goods and pocket the £5.

amber | 28.03.17 - 4:34 p.m. | #

The existing pound coin design has only been around for 34 years, now it is going. Prior to decimalisation our coinage lasted much longer than that, and was a link to the past. I well remember Queen Victoria pennies, some of them worn so smooth that the inscription could barely be deciphered. I once received an 1845 shilling in my change, hardly worn at all (I still have it).

Tony (Somerset) | 28.03.17 - 5:10 p.m. | #

Could you just get rid of 2p coins? At most, you'd get x4 1p coins as shown:

old|new
1p = 1x 1p --> 1 x 1p
2p = 1 x 2p --> 2 x 1p
3p = 1 x 1p; 2 x 2p --> 3 x 1p
4p = 2 x 2p --> 4 x 1p

Hardly likely to have a great impact.

Not DG | 28.03.17 - 5:20 p.m. | #

RE: No. 5 - why would it have to be re-designed if Scotland goes independent? Last time around at least, the plan was for Independent Scotland to keep the pound, and keep the Queen.

ken | 28.03.17 - 7:08 p.m. | #

@Ken

But if an independent Scotland applied to join the EU, it would have to adopt the Euro.

Anyway, the Royal Family is more Scottish than English (and more German than either, but let's not go there!)

Timbo | 28.03.17 - 7:44 p.m. | #

RE: How long do coins last?? This past week in the USA I received a copper 'Indian Head'(US)penny in my change. It was dated 1902.

Colesville Garth | 28.03.17 - 8:44 p.m. | #

On the subject of small change, I'd be glad to do as the Dutch and get rid of the 1 and 2 p/cent coins altogether, rounding up or down as appropriate.

Rob | 28.03.17 - 10:15 p.m. | #

OK was I the only one that had no idea about there was a limit on the number of lower value coins that could be legal tender?

Jon Combe | 28.03.17 - 10:50 p.m. | #

timbo: Like Hungary, the Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and Croatia have all "had" to adopt the euro?

Sure, they have said they will adopt the euro eventually, but there is no time limit. (There are still some "transitional" regulations in force for the UK since it joined the EEC!)

Andrew | 28.03.17 - 10:54 p.m. | #

It's a fair point that they don't have to join the Euro, at least immediately. But to have a currency both in and out of the Eurozone would be an absolute nightmare and potentially impossible to regulate.

Brad | 29.03.17 - 12:09 a.m. | #

"The coins will be melted down,

*separated into Copper, Nickel and Zinc during that process*,

and then be used to build new coins in slightly different ratios." Sykobee, above.

Oh, how?

Gordon | 29.03.17 - 12:18 a.m. | #

the metals have different melting temperatures and densities so can be separated if heating temperature is controlled. (don't try this at home)

amber | 29.03.17 - 6:49 a.m. | #

The phase diagram for such mixtures can be quite complicated, but it is analogous to fractional distillation.

Andrew | 29.03.17 - 11:57 a.m. | #

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