please empty your brain below
n.b. If you support photo ID for voting, you are wrong.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 12.05.21 - 12:00 a.m. | #

Postal votes are far more open to abuse than voting in person. Some of us still have paper driving licences and with foreign travel on hold no reason to renew a passport

kerspatula | 12.05.21 - 7:11 a.m. | #

I don’t have a driving licence (I’ve never needed one), so the only form of photo ID I have is my passport, which I don’t normally carry around with me. I expect lots of people don’t even have one of those. It was interesting to hear a government minister on the radio claiming that you need photo ID to collect a parcel from the sorting office (you don’t - a bank card will do) or to buy alcohol from a supermarket. Either she looks very young, or is a brazen liar.

All governments have the delusion that they can somehow fix the electoral system to stay in power forever. Sooner or later, they get lazy and corrupt, and people want to throw them out. I fear for democracy if this is made difficult or impossible.

Baldassaro | 12.05.21 - 7:16 a.m. | #

6th May does post about Lutfur Rahman and having a Mayor in Tower Hamlets.
12th May does post about what a terrible idea voter ID would be.

However because of postal voting this amounts to a pointless gesture, as you can't supervise the conditions under which these votes are being cast.

Still Anon | 12.05.21 - 7:35 a.m. | #

I believe that in the very few cases where there has been significant electoral fraud, this has been through the use of postal votes. Personation at polling stations is a non-problem.

Sarah | Homepage | 12.05.21 - 7:54 a.m. | #

I’ve also never had a driving license. During my student years I always had to carry my passport when going to pubs or clubs - risky and inconvenient. Life is much simpler in countries with national ID cards. Meanwhile, having a patchwork of different ways to prove one’s ID lets governments easily discourage certain demographics from voting.

Alan | 12.05.21 - 8:00 a.m. | #

For me a bigger worry is the number of people with acceptable photo-id who choose not to vote at all. At many elections fewer than half of those who could vote choose not to do so.

Brightside | 12.05.21 - 8:00 a.m. | #

Looks to me like a back door attempt to introduce identity cards.
As long as I am the subject of a non-elected monarch I'm not having one!
If I was to be a citizen of a republic I might change my mind.

iow | 12.05.21 - 8:08 a.m. | #

I don't want to go giving anyone ideas, but I am surprised they didn't make Tory Party membership cards the only acceptable ID

Simon | Homepage | 12.05.21 - 8:11 a.m. | #

Just get a postal vote. Also avoids the faff of having to go to the polling station.

Vectisian | 12.05.21 - 8:14 a.m. | #

Looking at the arrangements to apply for Electoral photo ID in Northern Ireland, it does sound like a lot of bother.

Option 1 is to front up at an address in Belfast for an interview during working hours on a week day. There doesn't seem to be an option for people who live elsewhere.

Option 2 is to apply by post enclosing either suitable photo ID (?!?) or a sworn statement from an MP or Councillor, plus a passport style photo (there's at least five pounds invested already, plus the cost of postage)

James | 12.05.21 - 8:14 a.m. | #

So that's
1. Changing Mayoral elections to first past the post
2. Tearing up planning legislation to create a new generation of home owning potential Tory voters in the North
3. Introducing compulsory photo ID on the pretext of avoiding fraud
4. Abolishing the fixed term parliament act to create more wriggle room for election dates (prepare for an election in 2 years time now, not three)

Bastards

daveid76 | 12.05.21 - 8:22 a.m. | #

Perhaps, I will be in a minority of 1, but I have no problem with being asked for strong ID, in situations where misrepresentation can have negative consequences.

It was the Conservatives who opposed national ID cards some 15 years ago.

J. | 12.05.21 - 8:41 a.m. | #

To be fair the Fixed Term Parliament Act seems quite useless, as it was circumvented with very little trouble in 2017 and again in 2019

James | 12.05.21 - 8:41 a.m. | #

They want to reduce access to postal voting too.

timbo | 12.05.21 - 8:46 a.m. | #

People who "have no problem being asked for strong photo ID" are invariably those who already have it, and haven't stopped to consider the wider population.

Kenton | 12.05.21 - 8:49 a.m. | #

Makes you almost wish the Monarch would use her Royal Veto sometimes.

Medford | Homepage | 12.05.21 - 8:53 a.m. | #

You observe that the smallest majority in the last general Election was 57, but much smaller majorities are quite common in local elections.

timbo | 12.05.21 - 9:30 a.m. | #

Southwark council have the following ID requirements to sign up for free swim and gym: [list]

To register for school proof of ID is required.
When starting a job, proof of ID is required.

However, many feel it outrageous to require ID to vote and mark it down as a blatantly political gesture and that insults need to be thrown at those proposing it.
What a strange world we live in.

Messiah | 12.05.21 - 9:43 a.m. | #

The Fixed Term Parliament Act was put in place purely to prevent coalition or minority governments from calling an election the moment the polls swing in their favour. It was never intended to stop a majority government from calling an election whenever the hell they please.

Chz | 12.05.21 - 9:44 a.m. | #

If they're going to do this they should issue free IDs and also make voting compulsory. That might shake things up a bit!!

Cornish Cockney | 12.05.21 - 9:54 a.m. | #

Wait until the White Paper is published then pass proper comment plus its still got the get through the Lords who are far more pragmatic and sensible that the government. I have read the foaming at the mouth fake outrage online in FB & Twitter. It will affect at most 25% who do not have a passport or driving license and once other acceptable forms of ID are factored in this number will drop considerable. For example will the PASS card ID be acceptable? These are only £15 and easily obtained as proof of age, have your name & picture on them.

No I am not a Tory, this should have happened years ago but the Chattering Classes were against a National ID card as its not British but it would at a stroke stop underage drinking, cigarette sales and other age restricted things. Plus it allows shops to make sure that certain restricted items, like medicines listed as poisons, can be logged in their register of sales.

Andrew Jarman | 12.05.21 - 9:56 a.m. | #

Makes you almost wish the Monarch would use her Royal Veto sometimes put Boris Johnson, Wannabe World King, in the Tower.

Blue Witch | Homepage | 12.05.21 - 10:14 a.m. | #

Getting a passport is fiendishly expensive these days I have discovered. I got it purely for ID purposes as a "staycation" more than fits the bill for me. Not only the fee itself and postage costs, but also getting a photo done in the required format entails getting it done professionally, itslf no mean expenditure.

cau1khead | 12.05.21 - 10:42 a.m. | #

I've always been in favour of a National ID card anyway, as so often you need photo ID anyway

Most European countries seem to require proper ID to vote so it's hardly some unique development

Mikey C | 12.05.21 - 10:45 a.m. | #

Like Mickey C writes yes nearly all European countries have a National ID, for people over a certain age.(Netherland 14 yrs).
I remember in the UK they were agains ID cards and a Decimal currency because they were judy not british.

Michael | 12.05.21 - 10:53 a.m. | #

Thus wrote a columnist in the Daily Telegraph in 2004: -

"If I am ever asked, on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong and am simply ambling along and breathing God’s fresh air like any other freeborn Englishman, then I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it in the presence of whatever emanation of the state has demanded I produce it.”"

The columnist's name? Boris Johnson.

timbo | 12.05.21 - 10:58 a.m. | #

The voter ID thing is simple wedge issue politics directly imported from the US. A clearly partisan 'solution' to a non-problem; a shibboleth. The accompanying 'free speech on campus' drivel is purest US right-woke confectionery. Whilst I realise the inevitability of hand-me-down culture from across the pond, this is active importation by 'clever' people whose moral compasses could do with recalibration.

JPmac | 12.05.21 - 11:08 a.m. | #

The Lib Dems were also against the Blair era ID card proposal. Indeed a lot of opposition came from "liberals", whether on the left or right

Mikey C | 12.05.21 - 11:10 a.m. | #

Not sure where Chz got that rationale for the FTPA - my understanding was almost the exact opposite - that the Lib Dems pushed it through as one of the very few things they got out of the coalition precisely to stop majority governments using that power for electoral advantage.

Sarah | Homepage | 12.05.21 - 11:26 a.m. | #

Social control is now in full swing, so ID it will be. With the NHS app for proof of vaccine etc, we are now moving firmly into digital IDs. Microchips will follow, in a few decades, if that.

Intreader | 12.05.21 - 2:00 p.m. | #

IIRC the Blair ID Card issue was that it was far reaching, biometric, highly invasive, mandatory to carry, difficult to get, and cost over £100.

A cheaper-to-implement 'photo ID' which was pretty much a 'photo driving license without the driving aspect' could be okay, if:
1) it is made freely available
2) and EASILY available, i.e., libraries, post offices - not travelling 100 miles to an assessment centre
3) photo has to be okay, not passport-perfect
4) it is provided to everyone at school, along with voter registration and voting education
5) you are not mandated to carry it at all times

The technology to run this already exists within the DVLA, so they could run it, and the implementation should be cheap.

Sykobee | 12.05.21 - 2:37 p.m. | #

What is this political nonsense now DG?

a) this would bring us in line with almost everywhere else in Europe, where you have to have photo ID to vote

b) in Northern Ireland, where this has been the case since 2003, a tiny minority of people have been turned away. Fewer, far fewer than failed to vote properly in the London Mayoral election a few days ago due to an electoral system that the Tories, to much outrage from people making these very same arguments, now wish to change.

c) this is not gerrymandering. Use a dictionary if you're going to use jargon.

barbicanman | 12.05.21 - 2:40 p.m. | #

Indeed, gerrymandering is something else altogether.

David | 12.05.21 - 3:30 p.m. | #

"Low levels of proven electoral fraud" is not the same as "low level fraud" in an environment where I can walk in off the street, give the name of someone I know who cannot be bothered to vote (or maybe have instructed not to vote), and vote in their name.

The paper driving licence argument hardly stacks up as time marches on. Pre 1998 issue holders reaching age 70 are automatically issued photo licence, and anyone changing name or address likewise - no fee.

scrumpy | 12.05.21 - 6:25 p.m. | #

"..this would bring us in line with almost everywhere else in Europe, where you have to have photo ID to vote..."

There is absolutely no need to have photo id to vote. As DG clearly states, voter fraud in the UK is almost non-existent. Therefore there is NO NEED for photo-id

Agent X | 12.05.21 - 6:25 p.m. | #

What manner of G-man subterfuge is this? Guesses aplenty but my assumption is that ID cards for voting rights is low on the list of actual reasons.
Combine the card with bank account and Oyster/season tkt interoperability &c. as a sweetener and then introduce massive fines for not carrying it 24hrs.
It'll make ID errors by the robot coppers of the near future vanishingly small. Which will make it easier to allow them ever more autonomy.

JP | 12.05.21 - 8:25 p.m. | #

I'd say postal votes are less open to abuse. Before opening your postal vote the election officers can check the signature they have on record for you against the the signed form you enclosed with the actual voting slip (which is inside a second envelope to ensure the ballot is secret).

timbo | 12.05.21 - 8:32 p.m. | #

Realistically it's much easier to tamper with people's postal votes, and indeed this has actually been proven to have happened in DG's own patch, Tower Hamlets, during the 2014 Election, on an absolutely massive scale. That it took so long for this to come to light strongly suggests that this is not as uncommon as I'd like.

barbicanman | 12.05.21 - 10:43 p.m. | #

Many US states have the concept of a "non-driving" license, since a driving license is so commonly used as proxy photo ID for various purposes. Not that I am in favour of needing ID to vote, but it is useful to have something somewhat official to discourage personation e.g. fraud prevention.

And I seem to recall that some post offices have a machine to produce passport-perfect photos (for a fee, as part of an assisted application process). Money back if the photo/form is rejected. Said photo is also digitally sent to passport office/DVLA (who also now share the same photo database, so updating one updates the other and makes getting replacements and dealing with losses when abroad easier).

MilesT | 13.05.21 - 12:48 a.m. | #

Given that they've now started winning by taking poorer areas from Labour, voter ID is just shooting themselves in the foot. Those still voting Labour after all this (students, areas with significant minority populations, university-educated renters, Liverpool) are probably the same demographic who would be aware of the change or at least subject to a massive campaign to inform them. Maybe this is merely a targeted way of disenfranchising Wales.

Anyway I assume this will be derailed by ID cards. We've got these idiots until Boris gets bored and moves on (2030) anyway, and then the post-Boris void will be so powerful that Labour should win by default.

MK | 13.05.21 - 10:15 a.m. | #

Anyone else interested in taking bets on someone in the government having a relative, friend, neighbour currently thinking of setting up a Voter ID company?

Cornish Cockney | 13.05.21 - 11:30 a.m. | #

barbicanman said "...fewer than failed to vote properly in the London Mayoral election a few days ago due to an electoral system that the Tories, to much outrage from people making these very same arguments, now wish to change"

The number of rejected ballots in the London Mayoral 2021 (1st votes rejected) was 114,201 (4.32%). Yet in the previous election in 2016 it was just 49,871 (1.88%).

So the issue in 2021 was the poor layout of the ballot with two candidate lists side by side each with two columns within, each named A and B. The instructions told you to vote once in column A and column B (there were two columns A and B!). When the ballot is designed for the machine and not for ease of voting, that's not good for democracy.

I was observing at the Excel count and we saw many "Over-votes" with people putting 4 votes (one in EACH Column A and B) or putting two first votes, one on each side. All such "over votes' are rejected, with that reason accounting for 87,214 (3.3%) of rejected ballots in 2021 (vs 32,217 (1.22%) in 2016).

The system isn't the problem.

Rob | 16.05.21 - 5:46 p.m. | #











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