dg comments

please empty your brain below

I too ground my teeth throughout that speech, and had raised blood-pressure and a tension headache by it's conclusion.

Frank F | 06.10.16 - 7:15 a.m. | #

You should have added 'a change is coming' more often.

Instead of armbands how about different coloured hats?, or special numberplates, or a 'John Bull' plaque on the front of houses?

| 06.10.16 - 7:34 a.m. | #

I wish people would use a 'name' instead of just making comments 'anon'

| 06.10.16 - 7:40 a.m. | #

No need for an armband. Let's just ask people born outside the UK wear some kind of visible symbol sewn onto their clothes. What could be wrong with that?

Chilling, isn't it, how easy it is for demagoguery and xenophobia to take hold.

Andrew | 06.10.16 - 7:49 a.m. | #

You say that NHS staff will ask to see your CoB, but over 20 percent of NHS staff won't have one themselves.

Can I ask to see my doctor's CoB in case he is a foreigner?

Chris | 06.10.16 - 7:58 a.m. | #

The sad thing is the people in UK are accepting this without much protest, and some of the tabloid newspapers are rejoicing in what is planned.
Day by day I have grown to dislike more our new PM and government. We did not vote for her, she has no mandate.
The pound sterling is at a 31 year low and is expected to continue to fall.
I am trying to find a way to get an Irish passport and remain a European citizen, even though I would qualify for a "Certificate of Britishness"in the new order.
Turbulent times ahead for UK.

John | 06.10.16 - 8:05 a.m. | #

Scary times.

I'm instantly thinking of Martin Niemöller . . .

'First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-
Because I was not a socialist'
etc.

Lorenzo | 06.10.16 - 8:14 a.m. | #

Dear oh dear, not another left-wing/anti-brexit post. This blog is good, but it's getting a bit tiresome now.

'John' | 06.10.16 - 8:15 a.m. | #

Sad thing is there is no electable opposition with credibility across the age groups and geography. If there was an election today, all the opposition parties would lose - giving victory to the vile bunch already in place.
What a sick image we are projecting to the world.

The Legendary Zelda | 06.10.16 - 8:15 a.m. | #

Good old May has even less of a mandate to govern here in Scotland where absolutely sod all of the population voted for the UK government we currently have!

However, with any luck they'll be another independence vote which will succeed this time...

Red Cardinal | 06.10.16 - 8:26 a.m. | #

Oh well, I guess that's me out then. Suppose I'd better get around to applying for that Irish passport.

martin | 06.10.16 - 8:54 a.m. | #

Psst, Anyone want to buy a blue armband?

Mike | 06.10.16 - 9:02 a.m. | #

Proper scary. And I don't see it is a primarily anti-Brexit piece; rather, anti some of the sentiments which were expressed in the vote, but which existed well before. The difference now is the respectability they're being accorded in mainstream political rhetoric.

| 06.10.16 - 9:10 a.m. | #

'John',This is not a left wing or anti Brexit post. This is a free democracy and this post is a call for it to remain so. If you don't like it are you part of the problem? Wait till 'they'come for you or your loved one.

Johnegib | 06.10.16 - 9:43 a.m. | #

What is "Proper scary" is that some people can't seem to grasp that the uk voted for Brexit. That's democracy. Stop bleating on you don't like the result.

Andy | 06.10.16 - 9:44 a.m. | #

I'm confused ... my parents both held British Passports but were born in the 1920s. I was born elsewhere, but in a Commonwealth nation. Do I get a Blue Armband or not? I hold a British Passport, and I consider myself English, but I am also a passport of another Commonwealth Nation (that my parents had to be white to emigrate to under the policy at the time). I'm also a Communist. Can I wear three armbands? I rather like purple. Will members of the Labor Party have to have red armbands under Corbyn to be members? Also, I don't think it fair that the Armband is the same colour as the Tory party colour. This could be construed as anti-democratic. Finally, I think that feminists should also have an armband, but our traditional colour is purple and this has been taken. Who do I complain to?

Antipodean | 06.10.16 - 9:58 a.m. | #

FWIW that's me being proper British (English) that is, complaining and all. Just saying.

Antipodean | 06.10.16 - 10:00 a.m. | #

Something doesn't stop existing simply by ignoring it, the big difference now is that the 'establishment elites' (for want of a better term) no longer have full control of the media.

So for example a politician might want to let in more refugees, but those waiting for social housing or stuck in bread + breakfast can make their voice heard to a wider audience.

If anything recent events have shown that the 'establishment elites' have ignored those people they didn't think mattered - Hillsborough (labelled as drunken football fans), the widespread sexual abuse of children in care (labelled as them making a lifestyle choice), Stephen Lawrence (stabbed black youth), not to mention the financial crash, weapons of mass destruction and MP's expenses.

| 06.10.16 - 10:03 a.m. | #

'John' - You have the choice not to read the blog.

Chris | Homepage | 06.10.16 - 10:09 a.m. | #

Seriously scary. The sentiments coming from the Tory Party are beginning to echo events of the 1930s. :(

Cornish Cockney | 06.10.16 - 10:22 a.m. | #

I agree with many comments above.

But I think those who see this as an "anti-Brexit" article are seriously missing the point. There is nothing evil about a democratic decision to leave the EU.

But what is evil, as DG's article reminds us, is a narrow nationalistic attitude and the hatred and prejudice which were always there, but which seem to be getting more expression recently, since the vote. The article is, quite rightly, pointing these out.

Such attitudes (not Brexit) are what makes me ashamed of this country.

Malcolm | 06.10.16 - 11:00 a.m. | #

Andy, you seem to confuse a serious point being raised about xenophobia as being a whinge about Brexit. Do you really know what you voted for?

Southern Heights | 06.10.16 - 11:05 a.m. | #

Establishment elites.. ?

A well used n+zi term, picked up again and used by UKIP and now becoming common usage.

First you divide, then you rule.

Would those who don't hold an aryan passport i.e. no birth connection to Britain, please stand in the queue on the right and use the yellow park benches.

IsarSteve | 06.10.16 - 11:26 a.m. | #

Clearly the certificate of Britishness discussed here is no longer enough...

Andrew | 06.10.16 - 12:37 p.m. | #

Andy

52% of the UK may well have voted for some form of ill-defined Brexit. The 48% of us who consider it the worst decision made by our country in our lifetimes are not going to meekly go along with it and jump off a cliff like a group of lemmings. That would be even more stupid.

That Brexit has permitted/encouraged/emboldened a mainstream political party to peddle this offensive nationalistic crap is, for me, evidence that it is already proving to be a very, very bad idea.

Will | 06.10.16 - 12:58 p.m. | #

One and a half paragraphs of today's post are lifted directly from the Prime Minister's conference speech yesterday.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 06.10.16 - 1:14 p.m. | #

@Will

Sorry, but it's important to point out.. 52% of 71,8% of the electorate voted out.
That is not a majority of the British.

The issue is still not decided. I guess and expect it will decided at the next election, when it comes, sooner or later. I expect sooner rather than later, when parliament chucks out the repeal of the 1972 act and article 50.

Brexit must be decided by Parliament not some ad hoc, off the cuff referendum.

IsarSteve | 06.10.16 - 1:15 p.m. | #

Much as it pains me to say it, IsarSteve, but that is how democracy works. If 28.2% of the electorate don't vote, then their opinions do not register.

You can argue about the standard of the debate (and the lies on both sides), and the geographical split between "leave" and "remain", and the question posed (as "leave" includes a broad coalition of opinion on what leave means, from joining the EEA to reviving the British Empire), and the threshold (and whether a bare majority is sufficient for a question of this magnitude), but the plain fact is that a majority of the people voting voted to leave. It is quite hard for a politician to dismiss it.

All that said, once we know what kind of deal we are getting if we leave, I'd prefer a second referendum (or a general election) on whether we really want that deal, or would rather remain instead.

Andrew | 06.10.16 - 1:36 p.m. | #

Indeed, DG, but to be fair, she also said:

"I want us to be a country where it doesn’t matter where you were born, who your parents are, where you went to school, what your accent sounds like, what god you worship, whether you’re a man or a woman, gay or straight, or black or white."

Andrew | 06.10.16 - 1:46 p.m. | #

The vote was carried by just 25% of the whole population. And most were elderly and misinformed.

Such an important and major development should have been decided by a vote that was compulsory for all eligible voters.

In fact, I'd make all our voting compulsory. Would still leave room for protest and spoilt papers.

This referendum was advisory. Why is the country behaving as if it were mandatory. Do you like your elected representative being sidelined.

Or like your press and politicians cranking up the hate levers.

pete c | 06.10.16 - 1:56 p.m. | #

And for those who are ultra-British, a new supply of black-shirts/skirts will be issued.

This weekend is the formal 80th anniversary of the Battle of Cable Street. Look it up, see what happened to the blackshirts and who did it to them.

Niemoller was too late because silence is consent.

UK Referenda are only advisory. The 'vote' had no definite criteria to make an informed decision, there was no minimum turn out (oh for compulsory voting, with a 'none of them' extra option) to validate the outcome, and every single [next word censored] politician lied and misled those who they hoped couldn't see through it.

Just wait till your excess roaming charges and 60 hour weeks come back...

Joel | 06.10.16 - 2:17 p.m. | #

I started reading this and then realised it was political. I stopped reading ...

Agent Z | 06.10.16 - 2:17 p.m. | #

It was that well known member of UKIP, Gordon Brown, who talked about 'British Jobs for British workers', oh sorry - doesn't fit in with the blame UKIP/Tories narrative does it?

| 06.10.16 - 2:51 p.m. | #

@Johnegib

We are still in a democracy.

You're being hysterical. Nobody is "coming for" anyone.

Dave | 06.10.16 - 2:56 p.m. | #

>I started reading this and then realised it was political. I stopped reading ...

same here.

Ted Banes | 06.10.16 - 3:04 p.m. | #

@dave

not yet

| 06.10.16 - 3:12 p.m. | #

It all starts with lists and goes down hill from then.

It’s not all that bad for non british people, with the pound lower we can buy even more of your country.

As to foriegners taking jobs just look at the premier league.

As we already own most of your manufacturing companies don’t be suprised when they leave for the mainland.

Michael | 06.10.16 - 3:14 p.m. | #

IsarSteve says "Brexit must be decided by Parliament not some ad hoc, off the cuff referendum". The holding of a referendum to determine continued EU membership was a manifesto commitment of the Conservative party who were elected to power in 2015. The European Union Referendum Act 2015 was passed in the same year, so it was hardly an "ad hoc, off the cuff referendum". If continued membership had been decided by Parliament, many would have said it should been decided by the people.... can't have it both ways !

Paul | 06.10.16 - 3:28 p.m. | #

Xenophobia is the result of the bad places going extremely bad without anybody able to stop it.

I personally don't blame Western leaders suppressing immigration such as to keep the society under kind of control. Instead, it's probably time to intervene places supplying refugees, such that there wouldn't be unneeded flow of people.

Jobs, no matter how evil it looks, ought to be finished. Abandoning something in the middle is almost certainly the worst.

Patrickov | 06.10.16 - 3:34 p.m. | #

Today's blog and some of the responses are tiresome:
1) whatever the rights or wrongs of 23 June, the government was tasked/mandated/instructed to organise our departure from the EU. Triggering Article 50 is merely part of the process,
2) I suspect many people voted for Brexit on the basis, not that they disliked foreigners, but they objected to jobs that Brits could do but choose not to being filled by immigrants, thus increasing the population and exacerbating associated infrastructure pressures as well driving up the welfare bill.

Amber Rudd may have chosed her words carelessly but is it not reasonable to know the nationality of the working population even if only to plan for the future? Incidentally, why can't HMRC provide the data: surely when an NI # is allocated the provenance of the allocatee is known?

Incidentally DG, which shade of blue, Oxford or Cambridge, and will Chelsea players have to wear them at work?

Let's get back to something we can all relate to: the inadequacies of TfL.

Get back to Bus Stop M please | 06.10.16 - 4:13 p.m. | #

Do I get a 'Londonishness' armband with little diamonds and geezers all around it?

After a few years our DNA readouts will be freely and easily available on the internet. Then we shall be able to see that every one of us is foreign and that there is no such thing as 'Britishness' after all.

Having just returned from China (I have been many times since the early 90s) I am in no doubt about who will be running the world, including 'our British bit', through the coming century.

Herbof | 06.10.16 - 4:14 p.m. | #

The London bubble culture did not forsee,
they thought an attack on everyone no matter what race they be.
As my motto goes is it a crime to take back control, else you will be trying to 'heard' cats.
At the end of the day we wouldnt be in this situation if the Remain campaign had a focused aim which told us of the positives.....i cant remember hearing much from them....it was just 'white noise'

Bruce Wayne | 06.10.16 - 4:35 p.m. | #

The not-so-funny thing is that those of us who are from overseas and have become British, already have a certificate saying we are British.

But people who are born British don't. They just have a certificate saying who their parents were. (OK before 1983 everyone except the children of male diplomats who were born in the UK was automatically British, but it doesn't state that on a birth certificate.)

John | 06.10.16 - 5:06 p.m. | #

"I suspect many people voted for Brexit on the basis, not that they disliked foreigners, but they objected to jobs that Brits could do but choose not to being filled by immigrants, thus increasing the population and exacerbating associated infrastructure pressures as well driving up the welfare bill."
If we accept Brits don't want those jobs, who would you have doing them? No-one?

No free movement will mean fewer UK pensioners retire overseas, thus increasing the population and exacerbating associated infrastructure pressures as well driving up the welfare bill.

| 06.10.16 - 6:05 p.m. | #

Apropos 6.05pm: how many unemployed do we have at present? The unemployed should be able to reject no more than 2 jobs, thereafter no more benefits except food, fuel and energy vouchers. It is crazy that umemployed Brits sit on their backsides because they don't 'like' a job, which as you rightly say have to be filled by immigrants. I would have no issue with unlimited working immigrants if we could deport our layabouts, but we can't! End result: overcrowding everywhere, which contributed I believe to the 'leave' vote.

Get back to Bus Stop M please | 06.10.16 - 9:00 p.m. | #

>'No free movement will mean fewer UK pensioners retire overseas'

Unlikely. Retirees don't take local jobs but contribute greatly to the local economy, e.g. restaurants, bars, shops, builders, decorators, gardeners, cleaners etc.

Spain and other Mediterranean countries will continue to welcome them after Brexit.

Gerry | 06.10.16 - 9:48 p.m. | #

The thing about many of the immigrants is that they can earn here in a few months what it would take a year to earn in their own country, as a result some actually only work here for a few months in a crap job, then go back and live like Kings for the rest of the time - they do this every year.

Unfortunately a poor British person can't do this, well perhaps if you slept in a van whilst in London, then went back 'up north', but you'd still have British overheads as opposed to East European ones.

| 06.10.16 - 9:54 p.m. | #

Never read the comments on a political post, eh?

kennedy | 06.10.16 - 10:08 p.m. | #

I don't believe this government will last the full term anyway. Too many internal divisions over Brexit/Europe.

| 06.10.16 - 10:39 p.m. | #

Because I've got all night....

Steve | 06.10.16 - 10:40 p.m. | #

Where do I sign up for mine.

Colininthailand | 06.10.16 - 10:43 p.m. | #

Lots of tub thumping here which may turn out to be very wide of the mark. cf @Andrew there may be a bigger issue that yo tub thumpers have overlooked. Public policy and financial support has for decades been skewed to assist various special interest groups e.g. ethnic minorities, religious minorities etc. This inevitably ends up being a check box exercise for both the pan handlers and the organisations set up to divi out the dosh. People who cannot access these resources because they cannot claim any of the 'minority' characteristics inevitably start to feel disenfranchised and excluded. Giving stuff to 'minorities' because they are minorities does not make them feel like they belong to the greater society in which they are residing - it just perpetuates their feeling that they are different. There you have it. British born people start claiming to be British XXXX's, British YYYYY's and British ZZZZ's. i.e. not really British because the secondary characteristic makes them 'other'. So, is May really trying to pull us all back to....You are born and educated in Britain...you are British....your skin colour, religion, genetic heritage etc etc is of NO CONSEQUENCE. ???

B | 06.10.16 - 10:46 p.m. | #

So the vast majority of dg readers are Liberals then.....

Colin | 06.10.16 - 10:48 p.m. | #

pete c I agree with what you are saying. Find the phrase 'elderly and misinformed' amusing though. It conjures (to me anyrate) a vision of confused geriatrics aimlessly wondering the streets clutching their Daily Mails.

Lorenzo | 06.10.16 - 11:29 p.m. | #

You mean UKIP supporters?

Andrew | 06.10.16 - 11:41 p.m. | #

And if the Great Trumpeter unfortunately becomes Prez of USA, then we too will have our own Certificate of USANESS.

Colesville Garth | 07.10.16 - 12:40 a.m. | #

@Garth: Let's hope USANESS wouldn't further descend to USAVICH

Patrickov | 07.10.16 - 2:08 a.m. | #

This post was like dropping a hand grenade.... heh heh.... a record number of posts DG?

Bruce Wayne | 07.10.16 - 5:12 a.m. | #

This comments thread increasing read like one from Mail Online. I found it tricky to read due to the deafening sound of the "off-topic" claxon!

I can seldom recall a post which caused so many people responded so enthusiastically to the instruction at the top of each comments page:

"please empty your brain below"

Frank F | 07.10.16 - 7:35 a.m. | #

Like ticket counters disappearing on the tube, when it comes to Brexit you need to get over it DG.

Set up a political blog. I come here for an escape from all that, not your left wing rants.

Mark | 07.10.16 - 7:36 a.m. | #

@Mark - since when did the reader get to dictate the content to the author?

"Dear Mrs Rowling, I have really had enough of all the kids, and the magic stuff..."

Frank F | 07.10.16 - 7:52 a.m. | #

'Mark' - Come here for an escape do you? Stop ordering the site's owner around and stop coming then!

What a nerve! Why can't DG occasionally digress on his blog?

Chris | 07.10.16 - 7:56 a.m. | #

Mark: I am sure we are all very sorry if you were disappointed by your recent DG experience. I suggest you apply for a refund.

Andrew | 07.10.16 - 8:15 a.m. | #

I thought a reply necessary, even tho' mentioning Brexit is 'Off Topic'.

Apart from a few head bangers, we all know deep down that an 'out' vote had more to do with immigration, foreigners, Britishness, nationalism, than it had to do with the EU. Sadly, many now seem emboldened to air their racist views or even use aggression against those who 'are not our own'(sic).

Therefore, I don't accept the idea put about that this was a democratic decision and that's it. Whether 'Paul' likes it or not. Any Manifesto commitment has to be ratified by Parliament. Brexit hasn't been ratified and is unlikely to be so - At least by the current bunch of MPs. The outers may have slipped the ball into the goal, but I still expect it to be disallowed at some time. There's too much at stake to let them get away with it.

May is well aware of this, and I think her speeches this week can be seen in that context. Intending to send out the message to the outers that she's on their side. A bit of foreigner bashing instead of the usual Euro bashing. But she'll learn that throwing offerings to the pack, will just increase their demands.

Interesting times indeed, but not at all sewn up... yet.

IsarSteve | 07.10.16 - 9:55 a.m. | #

I agree with Mark, all this blinkered left wing ranting is very tiresome and degrades the blog.

Mark using a different name | 07.10.16 - 10:02 a.m. | #

The problem with democracy is that most people don't know what's good for them...

Tim | 07.10.16 - 10:09 a.m. | #

@Bruce Wayne: March 18, 2008, was a bumper day for comments.

GA Annie | 07.10.16 - 10:24 a.m. | #

It's taken me a while to find the quote I was looking for.
Phillip Ball (after analyses showing how the processes work)
"democracy is a very slippery concept....the argument for adopting a democratic system of government is not that it is perfect or even in some sense the 'fairest' system, but that it is (probably) the least susceptible to corruption"

B | 07.10.16 - 10:31 a.m. | #

...and they say I'm grumpy?! Listen to this lot!

Grumpy Anon | 07.10.16 - 12:07 p.m. | #

A very worrying post. And some even more worrying comments.

Not Diamond Geezer | 07.10.16 - 4:53 p.m. | #

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