please empty your brain below
Hopefully 'Someone working on this project | 15.06.17 - 8:18 p.m.' who has been 'been reading this blog for years' will be along shortly with further explanations.

RayL | 04.08.17 - 7:26 a.m. | #

The next tram indicators along the entire tram network have been improved and so far this improvement seems to be genuine.

John | 04.08.17 - 7:46 a.m. | #

Do indicators at Mile End, Stepney Green, Whitechapel or Aldgate East work properly westbound?, if so, catch the first train and change there.

Incidentally, I've often found getting the first train to Mile End, then the Central Line to Liverpool Street, and changing to the Circle/H+C/Met less hassle than specifically waiting for a H+C train.

Still anon | 04.08.17 - 7:59 a.m. | #

Some of this seems to be to do with stations with greater than two platforms existing somewhere along the line. But this data is awful, and has been awful as long as I've been using it - I can only assume it's very tenuously linked to the signalling system as surely that knows what's happening...

Kirk | 04.08.17 - 8:12 a.m. | #

How did the light box work? Was it manual? If not, what has happened to the source of information that told it which train was arriving next? Surely that at least should be possible to know with some certainty.

Andrew | 04.08.17 - 8:48 a.m. | #

@anon 7:59; the one at Mile End is just as bad.

Alfie | 04.08.17 - 8:49 a.m. | #

'The one at Mile End' works fine (next 3 trains, 5 minutes notice), and has done for years.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 04.08.17 - 9:00 a.m. | #

Looking at it, it seems to me that there is a detector missing or malfunctioning somewhere upstream.

It's like it detects a train and then loses it again...

Southern Heights (Light Railway) | 04.08.17 - 9:19 a.m. | #

The same fruit machine can be observed on mobile. So here's an experiment for you: stay on the platform like you did, but open the Nearby widget on your phone. Check if the display and your screen do the same or not. Either way, we will have an answer.

Greg S | 04.08.17 - 9:37 a.m. | #

I don't now what widget you're using, but TfL has never been able to supply a 'live arrivals' feed for Bow Road.

Even Citymapper can only display the timetabled trains, not a list of actual services.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 04.08.17 - 9:55 a.m. | #

LOL...go to Mile End and check the indicators there...LOL, sorry, I'm rolling on the floor....LOL
ehem, if you can get to stand somewhere on the platform where you can see the blasted thing....we all have to crane our necks and, only bother doing that when we sense the rumbling of an approaching train through our feet.

B | 04.08.17 - 10:15 a.m. | #

Issues with Next Train Indicator feeds look set to continue with conventional signal cabins such as the one at Barking still in use, the light boxes at Bow Road used to operate by means of a manual train describer operated from Whitechapel (Eastbound) and Barking (Westbound), this system has been cannibalised/semi-automated with tracker-net systems until the Four Lines Modernisation (4LM) will result in the closure of the signal cabins which depending on the actual complexities of the track layout in question have already dispensed with their manual train describers even though the interim use of a radio based system used heading west from Barking is inadequate due to the track layout at Barking and ongoing works with Whitechapel signal cabin which is now effectively "switched out". This means that data on the platforms are vague or sometimes non-existent with signallers working to the timetable but unable to manually input data to the train describers as they used to be able to. Feeds to/from Whitechapel will be optimised as part of Migration Area 3 which forms part of the first phase of improvements to the entirety of the Circle line. Bow Road's feed from Barking is part of Migration Area 6 but in all likelihood the feeds will improve before this set roll out before 2021.

Martin | 04.08.17 - 12:24 p.m. | #

It brings me great joy to see DG write "wtf" in a blog post.

Anon | 04.08.17 - 1:49 p.m. | #

Reporting LIVE from Plaistow:
1343 R 5m; H 8m; W 9m
1346 R 2m; H 5m; EB 7m
1349 R 1m; H 2m; EB 3m
1349 R arrives
1350 H 1m; EB 2m; W 3m
1351 H arrives
1352 EB 1m; W 2m; R 4m
1353 EB arrives and I leave

So not too bad only one 'leap frogging' of W over EB at 1350

Roger French | 04.08.17 - 1:54 p.m. | #

Martin's post at 1224 has totally baffled me, useful as though I'm sure it is.
But I think it means you're in trouble for a while yet.

Chris | 04.08.17 - 2:09 p.m. | #

The online departures from Bow Road are unavailable but Aldgate East is working and should give the same running order

https://tfl.gov.uk/tube/stop/940GZZLUADE/aldgate-east-underground-station

So play DG's game from anywhere with internet, even a station with Wi-Fi

Mike D | 04.08.17 - 2:09 p.m. | #

Wtf indeed!!
Which reminds me, I need to take a closer look at Harrow-on-the-Hill to see if their new displays are any better.

With the light box you had to hop between platforms looking down the track to see which side the next train was coming in on.

Last weekend there was a train sitting at both platforms, but no apparent indication as to which would leave first.

I picked correctly as a couple of minutes later the other train decanted most of its passengers into ours and off we went, but really that's about as complicated as it gets there!

Cornish Cockney | 04.08.17 - 2:55 p.m. | #

Chris, your dead right, put bluntly there is a whole mix of old and new systems all spewing out data that is confusing some Next Train Indicators such as the Westbound ones at Bow Road.

It's unlikely that these problems will be given much attention at the moment because the Circle, District, H'smith & City and Met lines are being upgraded with a standard train control system. This project is known as the Four Lines Modernisation (4LM) and will fix these issues caused by decades of non-standard equipment which will all be phased out and replaced with a system that is universal leading to more accurate data on platforms.

Martin | 04.08.17 - 2:57 p.m. | #

Martin's suggestion that "in all likelihood the feeds will improve before 2021" doesn't fill me with any confidence whatsoever.

The westbound display is still showing random gibberish today. I'm not sure I could withstand four years of this.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 04.08.17 - 2:58 p.m. | #

Station is to be renamed as part of the sponsorship deal like the Oxford Landing one.

Tom-Bow la Road.

Uncle Audrey | 04.08.17 - 3:38 p.m. | #

@Roger French 1;54

That looks like an Ealing being injected into the system at 1346 in front of the Wimbledon. Presumably there's a reversing point / siding about 7 minutes upstream from Plaistow where that can happen.

dg writes: It's called Barking, timbo.

timbo | 04.08.17 - 6:29 p.m. | #

"It's called Barking..."

DG never said a truer word!

Malcolm | 04.08.17 - 7:26 p.m. | #

Diamond Geezer, 2021 is the absolute worst case scenario that I can definitively put a date on without someone blowing a gasket, the Westbound NTI at Bow RD will probably be patched when it's source, the train describer at Whitechapel is properly configured and isolated to accept and send data from the more accurate Trackernet system.

No timeline officially set specifically for this as it is dependent on the phased introduction of new equipment which is being rolled out ahead of re-signalling starting with the section between Hammersmith (Circle) and Latimer Road.

It not a question of confidence, it's simply what will get priority first.

Im told troublesome NTI's usually will be shut down displaying generic messages (Eastbound District and H'smith & City lines) until they are patched which is what happened when Harrow's new NTI's started. Temporary measure but as I said it's rank on the list of priorities will dictate how quickly it will be fixed.

Martin | 04.08.17 - 10:13 p.m. | #

"It's called Barking"

I thought it might be but I didn't have a Tube map to hand and east of the Lea is terra incognito for me.

I think I've worked out what's wrong with the monitors. Firstly, there are two holes where the train is invisible to the system - one is at the station itself, and the other is somewhere about eight or nine minutes away. There is also a problem identifying an approaching train about one or two minutes away, although the presence of the train can be detected. Thus, just before the Hammersmith train comes in, the system is actually seeing the second (Ealing, but unidentified) train (3m), fourth (Hammersmith 11m) and fifth (Ealing 14m) train. The third (Richmond) train is in the dead patch about 8 minutes away. So actually, when you say it tells more lies (when the Richmond train re-appears) it is actually telling the truth! (for only the third time in your sequence, and leaving aside the invisible train in the platform).

If it can't see one of the first three trains, it will display the fourth train instead, (or even the fifth if the fourth is in the second dead patch) but when a train leaves the dead patch that train will disappear again.

I agree it needs fixing but at least we can surmise what's going on and, knowing where the dead patches are, assume that there may be a train not on the screen about 1 minute away and another about 9 minutes away.

The trains were running in the right sequence (EWRH), except the second Wimbledon train is running late, and sneaks in between the (missing) Hammersmith train and the Ealing train when it is 11 minutes away (presumably using the turnback at Barking?)

timbo | 04.08.17 - 11:26 p.m. | #

How much work is required to find the train describer at Whitechapel, make sure it is properly configured, and make it accept and send data from the Trackernet system?

Are we talking three men for a week, or one bloke for half a day?

When were next train indicators first introduced? How ever did Tube travellers manage before then?

Andrew | 05.08.17 - 8:54 a.m. | #

>I thought it might be but I didn't have a Tube map to hand and east of the Lea is terra incognito for me.

surprising NF, seeing as you seem to know the rest of the country's national rail network like the back of your hand.

Geofftech | 05.08.17 - 9:57 a.m. | #

Andrew, it appears that engineers believe it's continuity issues with data from Barking towards Bromley-By-Bow thats giving Bow Rd a hard time.

Technicians will likely look for the cause of this issue after the close of traffic when they will have greater access to track side equipment which is life expired and prone to these issues.

If no immediate solution can be found they will likely resort to pulling the plug on the Westbound Indicator's data feed leaving it with a generic "Westbound District and H'smith & City lines" message until they route out the problem which could range from a gap of coding to to faulty wireless routers and antennas.

Martin | 05.08.17 - 11:43 a.m. | #

From https://tfl.gov.uk/tube/stop/940GZZLUBWR/bow-road-underground-station

Live arrivals at 12:26:54
Live Arrivals
We are unable to show live arrivals at the moment. Please use Timetables to check the frequency of your service.

Probably a good idea anyway...

Mark | 05.08.17 - 12:28 p.m. | #

Thanks, Martin. If the answer is "we don't know for sure what the problem is, so we can't say how long it will take to fix" then I can understand why it hasn't been fixed already. If was easy to sort out, I expect it would have been, but it sounds like it might be worth the investment of a few hours to see if it can be made to go away, and then switching to a default message if it proves harder than that. No doubt DG's intervention will not extend the time to a fix being made.

Andrew | 06.08.17 - 8:05 a.m. | #











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