please empty your brain below
I wonder why contactless ATMs have not taken off? That would defeat this scam. The technology exists and is cheap now.
@Dan There was a report only last week saying that there had been a huge increase in contactless fraud and further increases in the limit were unlikely. The machines I use already allow contactless withdrawal. The
This is one reason I try to only use cash machines actually inside a bank. I know this isn't always practical / possible but it does reduce the risk of the machine being tampered with.
On the subject of fraud in my experience the banks have been very good, albeit a bit annoying once when I was trying to book a series of flights and hotels and the card got stopped whilst doing so, the bank obviously thinking I was up to no good.
But contactless fraud is high because you don't need a pin. If the machine were contactless but needed a pin for every transaction - regardless of value - then it should be just as safe without any risk of losing your card.
Another thing I do is always take out the same amount which is not one of the main options and has to be typed in. This means that if anyone else takes out money it will stand out.
I feel very strongly that the banks have failed to introduce security measures that would easily defeat this scam and, consequently, they should always pay up.
Sorry DG!
It is always going to be a battle with these scumbags.
I hate the idea of that CCTV going unchecked.
It was at a petrol station. There was quite a queue which was possibly fortunate because it gave me time to look around. Something in the ceiling tiles - looking a bit like the head of a drawing pin - directly above the till caught my eye. As I got closer it became clearer what it was, and I was pretty damn sure it was a pinhole camera. Yup, dead above the payment terminal.
Trust no-one!
Like everything it comes down to cost, how much to upgrade all cash machines, as against losses from not bothering, considering that banks make xxx billion per year and they always moan about the fact that retail banking doesn't make money - then the chances of any nationwide upgrade is near zero.
More pertinently, if you bank is any good, you ought to be refunded automatically at some point during the next working day when reconciliation of the cash machine identifies a discrepancy between withdrawals and the money paid out and then your account is identified. If your bank isn't so go good you might have to report this so they can investigate - but one would hope the fraud department has set this in motion.
The bank doesn't want to end up with refunding you twice!
The transaction limit is much higher than the standard £30; it's context-dependent but typically can be in the hundreds of pounds. Because of the inherent iPhone security (eg Touch or Face ID), losing the phone shouldn't put your money at any risk.
Registering the card is quick and painless, and using it may be even easier than using a contactless card, depending on how you store the latter. If there is a disadvantage to Apple Pay, I've not discovered it yet.
One frustration I have about these is that they are recorded as fraud, therefore something for the bank, a private corporation, to record & sort out. Trying to get this recorded as theft, which is what is actually is, in near impossible as it reduces the police's performance results.
The same happened to a friend of mine and she got in touch with her assembly member to have it properly recorded. The local police commissioner actually 'phoned her, not to updated her but to try to have her not record it as a crime!
If your bank refuse to refund you the original withdrawal, threaten to take it to the FOS. It's unlikely they will continue to refuse if you threaten this as they know you will win every time once the Ombudsman gets involved because you haven't been negligent.
If the bank still refuse, ask for a deadlock letter and take it to the FOS.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/savings/does-bank-score-dealing-fraud/
Fraud is a crime too: someone other than DG using DG's card to obtain cash from his account is making a false representation. But if the bank has already refunded the transactions, isn't it the bank that has lost out?
And I don't think that using an expensive and large phone e.g. at a tube gate is very convenient. A watch maybe, but otherwise I'll stick to cards.
I was able to identify that it happened there, at the checkout, and nowhere else. Of course I got my card back from the cashier .....even so, I subsequently discovered, within two minutes money had been withdrawn from my account directly outside the supermarket. On the basis of this I contacted Waitrose (little interest) and Metropolotan Police (even less) and clearly no attempt was made to identify someone who had to have been standing within view of Waitrose security cameras in order to have got my pin number.
Moral of this story - NO-ONE will even bother to try to catch the thief however assiduous you are, presumably because it's cheaper not to bother.
I have the offical bank app on my phone for my personal account. It is pre loaded with all the numbers that are needed in case of fraud, both national/international. If you keep it regularly updated it gives tips on the lastest scams and what to look out for.
All ATM’s here are fitted with a special cover for the card slot, it has cut down on these types of scams since it was introduced 4 years ago.
What has been stolen from DG? Nothing. The card is the property of the bank. So, really, it is down to the bank to sort it out. And what is the value of the card?
Brian 9:46,
No-one will bother to try and catch the thief because, with so much pressure on resources, this ranks very low compared to child protection, domestic violence, terrorism and other more serious issues.
Like shoplifting, the organisation involved has some ability to reduce crime levels in this field. So the police would rather spend time and effort working with the banks at a national level to make the world more secure rather than run around in a futile attempt to clear up the mess.
It's only after reading today's post that I realise that it's possible I suffered the same fraud. Nobody came over to offer assistance but somebody could have been waiting around the corner for me to leave so they could retrieve my card. Thankfully I stayed next to the ATM whilst calling my bank so it was a wasted attempt.
I've since switched bank and not only does my new bank send alerts to my phone for every transaction made, I have the ability to freeze my card in the app.
I've never given ATM use much thought before - I guess you don't until it happens to you!
I don't even bother to shield my pin if there's no one else around, so I think I've been far too naive, and incredibly lucky so far!
Even more worrying about it happening INSIDE shops etc.
When the ATM I usually use failed to give me the money I tried to withdraw one time, I hot-footed it to the nearest branch of my bank. I missed them because they close at 4pm now apparently so had to return the next day to report it. Took about a week or so but noticed the £40 was quietly refunded.
I am wary of contactless cards because presumably if you lose it, a criminal can use it until requested to enter the PIN which one bank told me was roughly every 1 in 5 to 1 in 10 transactions. Presumably were this to happen, then he/she would say 'oops always use contactless, I've forgotten the PIN' and use cash. The risk to the criminal is being caught on CCTV but if no CCTV what's the risk?
Non contactless cards are not my forte. If I am right in believing that either possession of the card or its cloning, although giving access to the magnetic stripe, is insufficient to yield the PIN then the crucial issue for a customer is to shield the PIN, always. I wonder if banks could devise a simple device that a customer pre programs with the PIN, holds over the keypad and then successively hits a button 4 times, triggering the keypad buttons.
Final thought: if I am right in believing that the PIN is key to non contactless fraud, is there not a simple solution to the Lebanese Loop risk? Insert card, then press 'Cancel'. If the card is retained, you have not given away the PIN. If the card is correctly returned, start again and shield the PIN.
Any bank workers who can advise, please do!
I'm confused about the MO of this crime: How did the scumbags obtain your PIN? Were they 'shoulder surfing' you, or was there an additional device involved..? And when Scumbag 2 engaged you in conversation, was this when Scumbag 1 was removing the loop and your card, etc. do you think..?
dg writes: Don't know. Don't know. No.
I am really surprised at the high proportion of UK residents who believe that this is somehow "not allowed" or "unusual".
I rarely use cash to pay in the UK, but I keep £30 cash in my wallet and £200 at home. If I think I will need more cash I go inside a bank to withdraw it (from a machine or a person).
Many bank ATMs in Australia are contactless (at least for cards issued by the same bank).
Card PINs in Hong Kong are 6 digits.
Actually, I have over 10 UK bank accounts, mainly because it is currently the best way to get reasonable rates of interest on savings.
For the past many months we have been assailed with news that TfL has abolished cash on buses, etc, because everyone just uses 'contactless' on every bus journey etc, which is then totted-up to a daily 'cap' for the transaction actually charged.
dg writes: Not everyone. About half.
Now, one of the commentators above says that a PIN is called for on contactless approx. every 1-in-5 or 1-in-10 transactions. Goodness, this must mean constant delays at the boarding point of buses, etc, as a stream of passengers attempts to board.
dg writes: PINs are not called for on buses.
How do you enter a PIN at the entry door of a bus anyway ? Our local uses do not (yet) accept contactless but I do not see how you could enter a PIN if called-for ?
Contactless payments can still be made even after the card has been cancelled, the record being eight months. Some contactless payments are verified online, but many are not, notably TfL bus and underground services.
Many banks are arrogantly forcing customers to have contactless cards against their will. The answer is to use a paper punch to make a hole immediately above the last digit of the long number. This usually defeats contactless but does not break Chip & PIN.
https://krebsonsecurity.com/all-about-skimmers/
Whilst TfL might not always verify every card, I am pretty sure TfL has a stop list that is downloaded each day. So the miscreant might get away with it for one day.
Unfortunately I suspect numbers 'drop off the end' after a while so it probably isn't foolproof.
Anyway, it is not DG's problem now he has informed the bank though I agree a good scrutiny of future transactions would not go amiss - if the new card number is the same as the old one.
Once the person in front of me didn't take their money, but had disappeared by the time I realised. I waited a few seconds and the machine pulled the money back in, and they should get their withdrawal reversed. I would have expected the same to happen to your original amount, as it was never dispensed.
Having worked in a bank's fraud department, this simply isn't true. To date, contactless fraud has been far lower than conventional fraud. I'm not sure of the reasons for this myself, but the statistics are out there. To give you an example, last year it only *just* passed cheque fraud in absolute numbers. Contactless was, last time I checked, responsible for about 5% of all card fraud while being used in just shy of 50% of transactions.
What wouldn't surprise me is if these stats somewhere covered up the number of fraud attempts. Its tiny contribution to overall fraud could be masked by some truly fantastical amounts attempted in other ways.
More back on track, I've seen at least eight different varieties of card reading interfaces purported to prevent fraud. Because there's so many of them, I literally have no idea what a proper one is supposed to look like. Other than the riskiest ones are like the sort pictured - very 1990s.
I thought it was very suspicious that this person should know so much about the machine, but did not have a camera to photo their face.
They disappeared off, but managed to get £700 from my partner's account using another cash point. The Bank refunded the cash eventually.
Moral: if anyone offers to help in a situation like this, take a photo of them!
dg writes: Apologies, I've edited it again to remove mention of gender as well as race.
The card itself has two Lost/Stolen Card numbers to use. They're now stored in my phone for future reference.
dg writes: I'd forgotten, that happened to me too. I've added an extra paragraph to the post, thanks.
...except I have a new PIN and 16 digit card number to memorise (which could take years).
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