please empty your brain below
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I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. Standing by a machine, glasses on, bag in one hand, walking stick in the other, trying to enter information about freedom pass, over sixties pass etc. and by then you’ve missed your train! Just won’t bother. 😳
Jo W | 06.07.23 - 7:17 a.m. | #
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And if all this goes ahead, Overground offices will inevitably follow, sadly.
I really feel for someone who wants to pay cash for a ticket who's searching for a staff member within a compulsory ticket area.
And you’ve highlighted how the consultation is being handled in a way guaranteed to p*iss off even what i expect will be the few supporters.
Mr Grumpy | 06.07.23 - 7:23 a.m. | #
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Won’t travel or won’t be able or willing to pay. Many stations in south east London already appear unstaffed with open ticket barriers all day, with no on board checks why buy a ticket?
DaveC | 06.07.23 - 7:25 a.m. | #
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The c2c proposed list totals five rather than six.
The South Western list omits Guildford, but includes Woking twice.
dg writes: told you it was complicated. Fixed, thanks.
Carllo | 06.07.23 - 7:30 a.m. | #
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Rail tickets are notorious for obscure pricing, my staffed office can sell me a return travelling at the weekend about £4 cheaper than the ticket machine can.
Apparently the ticket machine can sell me this ticket too - now that I know this fare exists, but I have to press the buttons on the screen in the right combination at the right time, even though the machine 'knows' I'm travelling at the weekend because I have to tell it which day I'm travelling.
Still Anon | 06.07.23 - 7:45 a.m. | #
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I’ve been using a contactless credit card for my irregular patterns of commuting on the trains since March 2020 and still not worked out how delay replay works when I don’t have a paper ticket or receipt or a TfL account linked to the card.
Andrew | 06.07.23 - 7:50 a.m. | #
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I have no issue with the lack of ticket offices but I do with the siting of machines where they are outdoors and invariably have sunlight shining over the user's shoulder rendering the screen all but impossible to read because of glare.
Rob Gullen | 06.07.23 - 7:57 a.m. | #
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And I was expecting a positive post to counter yesterday's negative post.
You get to the station with a valid ticket or pass for the start of your journey. You can't fathom how to get the ticket you require for the rest of the journey and either the guy on the gateline can't tell you or there is no gateline and no staff. So (legitimately) you commence your journey. At the other end the guy on the barrier can't be bothered to sort this out because that is human nature so he/she just lets you through.
Alternatively, for some reason, you genuinely don't know what ticket you require and there is no gateline or staff. Or, due to a disability and no help available, you genuinely can't purchase a ticket. You can still legitimately travel and will probably end up not paying unless travelling to a major station such as a London terminus.
At the moment conditions of travel allow you the choice of paying cash or by other means so if you say you want to pay cash they can't make you pay by using a card. Therefore if you the station can't accept cash I think you can legitimately board a train and pay at the earliest opportunity which might not happen at all for the journey made.
I can't see this working.
My prediction is that they will introduce this before the supporting technology and legislation is ready and chaos will ensure. It will be a classic 'good idea badly implemented' situation.
It is notable that most supermarkets still provide staffed checkouts even though self-service has been in use for a considerable time. No doubt that may go eventually but they haven't rushed in to getting rid of them from any individual store.
Pedantic of Purley | 06.07.23 - 7:58 a.m. | #
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Nothing from LNER?
dg writes: no
Ian | 06.07.23 - 8:20 a.m. | #
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The SWR document is a pdf, not a powerpoint. It does have detailed information on each station. Even Waterloo will have no ticket offices which seems a step to far.
davews | 06.07.23 - 8:33 a.m. | #
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As I understand, if there is no ticket office, you can board a train and then buy a ticket. How much time will the guards (or whatever they are called these days) spend issuing tickets rather than checking for valid ones?
Kev | 06.07.23 - 8:50 a.m. | #
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I empathise with those affected by these changes, staff and customers alike. I'm conflicted however as personally I've not used a ticket office in the last 10-15 years, and many under 35s are already likely to walk towards the platform phone in hand while purchasing a ticket online.
Where was the outrage when the robber baron supermarkets extinguished thousands of (often part-time, often female) checkout jobs?
Frank F | 06.07.23 - 8:59 a.m. | #
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LNER are retaining their travel centres at Edinburgh Waverley, Newcastle, York,
Doncaster, Peterborough, and London
King’s Cross, becoming Customer Information Centres.
Not Diamond Geezer | 06.07.23 - 9:03 a.m. | #
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If I read the GWR doc correctly all of the ticket offices initially remaining open are going to close a couple of years later in 2026. It sounds to me like that might be the year when all the "interim" ones get shut and there are 0 ticket offices left.
Huw | 06.07.23 - 9:05 a.m. | #
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Found the document for LNER - here
The Doncaster Free Press summarise the changes as "On the East Coast Main Line, the firm plans to retain ticket offices at Edinburgh Waverley, Newcastle, York, Doncaster, Peterborough and London King’s Cross, which will continue to offer the same range of products and opening times.
Greg | 06.07.23 - 9:06 a.m. | #
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We should be fine without ticket offices if we have adequate staff on the floor to provide help when we need it.
But as we see with supermarkets, this is not the case.
In some cases, there will need to be a better provision of ticket machines to.
PVR | 06.07.23 - 9:08 a.m. | #
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So, the onus is on us, the customer, to seek out the member of staff if we require a complex ticket. No ticket will mean a penalty on board the train. The ticket collector will find us.
Who is to say where the roving member of station staff can be found? Human nature suggests that many will have found a hiding place somewhere on the station. After all, they will have to visit the toilet during their shift.
So, We have to try and find them. But They will certainly find us.
Especially on the rural network without a ticket.
Petras409 | 06.07.23 - 9:13 a.m. | #
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Evidently the Southern document covers all of GTR, as Southern don't serve Stevenage or Bedford, but Thameslink do. Ditto King's Lynn is on Great Northern, which I believe is soon to be rebranded Thameslink.
Clearly First Group have decided to give up as much as they can, except with GWR where they keep doing odd things.
Kirk | 06.07.23 - 9:20 a.m. | #
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This does seem very rushed, but perhaps the government thinks that with the unions striking so much, it can’t get any worse for the railways, so why not do this now. After all, if ticket office staff strike, that just accelerates the closure process.
Jimbo | 06.07.23 - 9:23 a.m. | #
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Not all tickets are available online or from ticket machine. As a retired member of TFL staff I have a " Privilege" card that gives me 75% off my rail tickets.
The only way I can purchase these is at a ticket office on the production of my ID card.
Although the terms and conditions state that my ID card gives me authority to travel if no ticket office available, being an honest soul I would not feel comfortable doing this, and wouldn't be able to relax for the entire journey.
Richard | 06.07.23 - 9:23 a.m. | #
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I think you have to read this consultation alongside the rail delivery groups wish to abolish paper tickets. In the future there may be no ticket vending machines at stations. The model may to buy your ticket online. Travel by train will need a bank account and a smartphone.
coffin dodger | 06.07.23 - 9:23 a.m. | #
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Wondering how to use my (several) delay repay cheques at a machine.
scrumpy | 06.07.23 - 9:34 a.m. | #
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Another example of degrading public transport rather than improving it. As for the statement that it's being done to "improve the customer experience" utter BS.
Station staff will disappear further until stations are deserted.. Station toilets will be locked making life more difficult and there will be more vandalism. Just to save a few quid. Progress ? I don't think so..
Rick | 06.07.23 - 9:39 a.m. | #
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I'd have thought this was a unique chance to deploy - behind the current ticket windows - trained (geddit) chatbots, speaking through head-and-shoulders animatronic personifications. Pop into Tussauds, borrow a couple of exhibits, nip them round the corner into Marylebone and wire them up. Simple..
A quantum cloud computer can probably handle the current maelstrom of fare variations and combinations, but for some reason I'll still need to collect a ticket from a machine which will be out of service.
jpmac | 06.07.23 - 9:45 a.m. | #
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Good to see that my local ticket office (Peterborough) isn't (yet) under threat.
I assume that the new job description for staff to be redeployed out of closed ticket offices will be issued for public consultation, ideally before negotiation with unions, so that customers get to say what their real needs are - for instance how railcards, seat reservations or informed split ticketing are to be obtained.
Ian | 06.07.23 - 10:09 a.m. | #
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Last time I checked my local ticket machines couldn't sell Travelcard Boundary Zone extension tickets. The ticket office always helpfully does.
The first step in this plan should be a new generation of do everything ticket machines. They should be installed before a single office closes. I'm sure many stations don't even have enough of the existing machines.
ap | 06.07.23 - 10:09 a.m. | #
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Even as an experienced user, I've made mistakes with ticket machine purchases, which have been resolved at ticket offices further into the journey.
But essentially I'm with Jo W - I'll just travel less and less, to which service frequency reductions are already contributing, as will the potential ending of the Travelcard.
Man of Kent | 06.07.23 - 10:29 a.m. | #
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Makes a mockery of the notion that the rail companies are all independent competing private entities when they all decide to close ticket offices at the same time
Ian | 06.07.23 - 10:41 a.m. | #
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A good decision overall - ticket offices have a huge cost with a tiny benefit. A reminder that in the end it is us, the travelling public, who subsidise this with fares. I hope Overground is next
barbicanman | 06.07.23 - 10:41 a.m. | #
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Not used a ticket office for years. The only time I've used one was when I wanted to buy a Thames Valley Rover, which wasn't available on the machine.
Mikey C | 06.07.23 - 10:43 a.m. | #
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As an older person with sight issues now, as well as mobility ones, I cannot see well enough to use those machines (nor supermarket checkouts etc). For the odd journey I made by rail in the past, I was able to buy my ticket in advance online and pick it up at the machine. Now it is just going to be inaccessible for me to travel at all.
Pamela | Homepage | 06.07.23 - 11:01 a.m. | #
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As a 72-year-old with a Freedom Pass and a senior rail card, I use my local ticket office for two main reasons:
1 -- to buy a ticket from the edge of zone 6, that is, from the end of the Freedom Pass area. This is not currently available online, and should be
2 -- to renew my senior rail card once a year. I guess that's probably available online, though never since I've had a senior rail card has Southeastern written or emailed to offer to renew
AlanBG | 06.07.23 - 11:12 a.m. | #
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Have a look at Luxemburg. Free travel for all so no need for ticket offices.
MK | 06.07.23 - 11:18 a.m. | #
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Richard. Retired TfL staff can now buy Priv tickets online. Details in next Pensioners OTM magazine. There is an option for tickets to be downloaded to a phone, by email or sent post-free. Of course the mail option prevents last minute travel, and l would no idea how to buy them on a smart phone. Aldo, how do you use a machine to buy extension tickets? EG - if travelling from Fenchurch St to Southend and l am already valid as far Upminster and thus want a Priv ticket for beyond there?
Kim | 06.07.23 - 11:18 a.m. | #
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With a proper ticket office, you can join the queue, and know that you will receive attention when it's your turn. With hovering staff "assisting" you to use the machines, you will be back to "catching the barman's eye", which may be OK for people with loud voices and no manners, but normal people will lose out.
Malcolm of Kent | 06.07.23 - 11:26 a.m. | #
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If there are no staff redundancies there won’t be any savings either. At Euston there was a filtered queue to around 10 booking clerks. Will there now be 10 extra TVMs each with a member of staff standing by it? If not, how much longer will it take?
Kim | 06.07.23 - 11:35 a.m. | #
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Ticket offices never appear useful until you need them and then you realise how useful they are! I notice that London North Western are keeping the TO at Watford Junction. I've saved money by queueing up there to get a family travel card which I just couldn't work out how to do from the machine (and you get lots of passive aggressive tutting if you take ages at a machine!). Then again, my real local station is Kings Langley and while the guy in the Ticket Office is rushed off his feet during rush hour, for the rest of the day he seems to have very little to do. You think that having PAYG/Oyster from there by the end of the year will mean he won't be needed but then how will I be able to buy my family travel card? Overall I think its a big shame we're losing staff at stations.
Also noticed from your LNWR that stations such as Watford North, which are currently un-staffed, are now going to be covered by mobile staff. I bet they aren't, I can smell the BS...
Simon | 06.07.23 - 11:42 a.m. | #
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As this is only applying to England those living in the Devolved Government parts of the UK Kingdom can seek some solace that they will be safe for now?
Chalfont St Giles | 06.07.23 - 11:47 a.m. | #
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Maybe I'm missing the point, but how is having someone roaming around the station assisting passengers buy tickets any different from having them sitting in a ticket office assisting passengers buy tickets - where at least you'll know where to find them, especially in busy railway hubs?
My grandad worked in the ticket office of a tiny halt in the sticks near Truro until it closed around 1969/1970 and was moved to the GWR desk in the town's travel agents instead. More inconvenient for passengers and he hated being switched to a desk job!
I'd love to travel around the country by rail but I find ticket-buying so complicated (and expensive) even online that I just don't bother.
Cornish Cockney | 06.07.23 - 12:04 p.m. | #
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It is possible to get tickets from London Boundary Zone 6 on-line. The c2c site does this. I discovered this after I had bought tickets to go to Chichester, couldn't get the Southern site to offer Zone Boundary so went to London Bridge ticket office. They had always issued me Zone Boundary tickets before but this time gave me tickets from East Croydon leaving me thinking that I could have done that on-line for myself. Only then did I discover the c2c site and its inclusion of Boundary London Zone 6 on its dropdown list.
However, the c2c site quoted me a fare from Stratford to Grays that can be beaten simply by using wave and pay with a contactless card so it isn't the panacea to all the ticketing wrinkles that our hideously complicated system currently taunts us with.
Brightside | 06.07.23 - 12:06 p.m. | #
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Make no mistake, this will make it easier to get rid of the soon to be 'roaming' staff entirely later on than if they were still in ticket offices providing a full service.
If staff are hovering around 'helping' with the machines, why not leave them in the ticket offices where they can, in addition, do things the machine can't, and where if you do need help after having gotten frustrated enough by the machine, you can always go to the ticket office.
matthieu1221 | 06.07.23 - 12:28 p.m. | #
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Re boundary zone extension tickets, I usually find that I can use a ticket machine because the fare from the last station before the boundary is the same as the boundary zone extension fare. On one occasion the extension fare was more expensive. Also brfares.com/!home is useful to check the lowest applicable fare before you travel.
JohnC | 06.07.23 - 12:32 p.m. | #
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From many of the comments either expressing or predicting a decline of interest in travel, I start to suspect the conspiracy being discouraging travel as a whole, and then slowly making the economy and social model fall back to manorism, where the whole place is divided into small pieces and people too isolated to resist whatever control placed upon them.
Patrickov | 06.07.23 - 12:58 p.m. | #
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Greater Anglia: Does Stratford currently have a ticket office, and will it keep it? Lots of GA trains call there
There is a huge missed opportunity in this restructure: Make it possible for convenience stores & post offices to sell rail tickets (cf Oyster top up, also mobile phone top up, utility bill payment). Put ticking close to where people live rather than at the station, although the complexity of tickets is a challenge (LNER single leg pricing and related simplifications is the way forward)
What's needed is an "agency" account scheme & website so customer can pay shopkeeper over the counter (cash or card) and not have to let someone else handle your card into the "retail" website. Shopkeeper would settle their "on account" sales weekly.
MilesT | 06.07.23 - 1:14 p.m. | #
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Anything that puts the miserable customer-hating 'so-and-so' in the ticket office at Strawberry Hill out of a job is good by me.
David B | 06.07.23 - 1:19 p.m. | #
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Lol at ticket splitting at a train ticket office. Why can't you arrive at a station, buy a ticket from a human or machine for a standard price to your destination? To countries with a fixed fare to travel on a train, the English or British system seems absurd. Should we thank Maggie for this?
Andrew | Homepage | 06.07.23 - 1:58 p.m. | #
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I read the GWR PDF as all ticket office stay open, many on slightly reduced hours, but that some windows will be closed.
dg writes: That's what they hoped you'd think.
Colly | 06.07.23 - 2:05 p.m. | #
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From the LNER consultation pdf, eek.
Essentially 'bad luck, you'll need to travel 50 miles if you want those'.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 06.07.23 - 3:40 p.m. | #
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That list includes "Seat Reservations". Good luck Interrailers, I guess.
It is absolutely inexcusable that they can do this while there are tickets that cannot be sold from machines or online. It shouldn't be the passenger's job to seek out a ticket-buying facility of the right type.
Perhaps the Treasury dreams of a future where these pesky railways can be knocked out and motorways have a captive audience to charge tolls to... another thing to emulate the US!
Anonymous | 06.07.23 - 3:49 p.m. | #
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My local ticket office is on the chopping block, despite a fairly steady stream of customers at any time of the day I've used the station. According to LNR's site, it'll be replaced by "mobile staff at certain points of the week", which sounds much more like "someone will pop by for an hour or so a few days a week" than what the announcements make out to be "the people who would have been in the ticket office will now be visible around the station".
I'm also not sure how access to the station building will be managed - currently the main building with its warm waiting area is only open when the ticket office is - at other times you're reliant on the tiny bus shelter style waiting area on the platform.
Moogal | 06.07.23 - 4:24 p.m. | #
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My station - Cambridge - is served by mutiple TOCs, with complicated rules about which tickets can be used where and when. The staff behind the desks are excellent at knowing what's best for a given journey, but unless the machines have AI brains I can't see how they will cope.
Peter | 06.07.23 - 5:51 p.m. | #
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Before they close ticket offices, they have to sort out purchasing tickets both via machines and online.
The current systems are not suitable for the average person to use. I'm a minor train-nerd and I sometimes have difficulty working out the correct ticket for my journey. (Maybe it's because I'm more aware of the rules I know what to look out for)
You know the machines are not adequate when staff have to stick pieces of paper on the machines telling you key pieces of information that the machines fail to tell you.
Jon Jones | 06.07.23 - 7:14 p.m. | #
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Mikey C mentioned buying a Rover ticket. I recently did similar, having to go to a ticket office to purchase it, so I would imagine TOCs would have to make this facility available at machines? Unless of course they wish to get rid of Rovers altogether, which may be true as they're not widely advertised.
Tim | 06.07.23 - 8:00 p.m. | #
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This is an outstanding piece of public service information - a jolly sight better than any information so far provided by "public services"! The Byzantine task of synchronising train tickets with cycle reservations is challenging enough at a ticket office; the prospect of attempting it online renders it unfeasible. Another benefit in the companies' eyes, one guesses, to thwart cycle use on their network.
cau1khead | 06.07.23 - 8:05 p.m. | #
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I’m conflicted here. A modern, fully national, integrated and simple ticketing system shouldn’t require ticket offices. Full contactless pay as you go, mobile ticketing and simplified fare machines should exist - look at the Netherlands for proof that it can be done well.
However until we have such a system, our ridiculous and fragmented fares structure requires such archaic things as ticket offices. Removing them before reforming the fares is a mistake.
That said, we are also the only country in the world that expects its public transport to be funded through fares and not government subsidy for the greater good. We’re so messed up.
Lew | 06.07.23 - 8:06 p.m. | #
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Thanks for a brilliant piece of research and analysis.
Hopefully those making good comments on here will be contributing to the actual consultation via London Travelwatch/Transport Focus as well, particularly with specific local issues rather than vague generalisations.
Steven Saunders | 06.07.23 - 10:07 p.m. | #
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Barry Doe in RAIL magazine has been giving some further interesting background on this. LNER's single leg pricing sounds sensible until you realise that you can't get a return and the flexibility that a return ticket can offer. A return ticket (generally) allows you to return within a month on a day you choose. It also allows a break of journey on the return leg. If I remember Barry's column correctly, LNER's single leg pricing will also restrict you to a single route between your start point and your destination, rather than 'any permitted route'.
This has been slightly off-topic, but does show how flexibility in the fares system is being reduced. More pertinent is that Avanti West Coast (AWC) will not allow you to book a ticket online or via a ticket machine if all the reserved seats on that train have been filled, even though there are carriages with seats that cannot be reserved. (LNER have also tried this apparently). However, you can still buy a ticket for one of these trains at the ticket office without restriction. That isn't going to happen in future unless the system is changed. (I'm very happy to be corrected on this if anyone knows differently). My transactions at the ticket office at my local AWC station are far quicker than using a TVM.
It's my choice if I want to stand on a journey. My experience between London and Manchester on AWC is that there are ALWAYS unoccupied reserved seats when the train leaves Euston.
As Lew says, it's a mess (and I'm still not sure how they're going to save much money with the proposals).
Ian | 06.07.23 - 10:11 p.m. | #
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It is indeed appallingly cavalier.
Which reminds me, we had an appalling Cavalier back in the mid 80s. It took nearly 20 seconds to get from 0 to 60.
Neil | 07.07.23 - 8:58 a.m. | #
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Christian Wolmar has (predictable) also commented with similar points made.
MilesT | 07.07.23 - 9:09 a.m. | #
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Those 14 "still open" GWR ticket offices are all marked "Ticket Office windows close" under "Proposed changes - Sep-Dec 2024", so there will be none from 2025.
dg writes: ouch... updated, thanks.
miker | 07.07.23 - 9:12 a.m. | #
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Chiltern have now published an expanded document on their consultation page.
centraluser | 07.07.23 - 5:27 p.m. | #
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I made an unscheduled visit today to my local ticket office, one of the 24 on Southwestern Railway proposed to have an interim reprieve. They were unaware of this, so I went home and printed off relevant bits of the Powerpoint and dropped it down to them, fully crediting this Blog and the source. Now I will write to Transport Focus stressing that Category 1 stations must be kept open on an indefinite basis not an "interim" one, in the hope that any future closure plans are subject to further public consultation.
cau1khead | 22.07.23 - 5:45 p.m. | #
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Entire proposal scrapped - 31 October 2023
Hurrah!
diamond geezer | Homepage | 31.10.23 - 3:13 p.m. | #
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