please empty your brain below
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Simplifying all the various tickets is a great goal. Doing it like this certainly feels like the wrong way to do it.
Ho hum.
Matthew | 17.01.24 - 7:22 a.m. | #
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It leads to even more complexity as some have discovered. Want to travel on the 08.30 or 09.00 from London to Newcastle, the cheapest fare can turn out to be the new semi-flexible ticket for the 09.30 which is valid on those earlier services. Or traveling to Edinburgh. It may be cheaper to buy an off-peak ticket to Haymarket or from Clapham Junction where the former ticketing structure is retained.
gruntbuggly | 17.01.24 - 7:33 a.m. | #
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If it was airlinification, then a London to Edinburgh single would be £15. It's just price gouging.
Ian | 17.01.24 - 7:34 a.m. | #
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To be fair, replacing returns with singles priced at half a return didn't hurt passengers. That was an eminently sensible move.
It is worth noting that the *simplification * arises entirely from merging Day and Open types and Off-Peak and Super Off-Peak. Replacing the Off-Peak with this "Advance plus" is just coincidental. It would have been equally simple if the three remaining fares were Advance, Off-Peak and Anytime.
I wonder if the premium charged on Anytime fares over Off-Peak ones is still justifiable considering changing work patterns. The peak is no longer the all-important revenue stream it once was.
In the end this reminds me of Deutsche Bahn ticketing for long distance/high speed trains. Just two types: fully flexible (Flexpreis) and fixed (Sparpreis).
SNCF has gone even further and abolished flexible tickets for long distance trains (in 2nd class) entirely, but they allow cancellation and changes at a very small fee (free up to 3 days before, then 5 euro up to 30 min before, then 15 euro). This would be a good model to follow if simplification is the objective. It also means Anytime tickets are not obscene fixed prices but can be reduced based on demand (as essentially you could buy a ticket just before boarding, when you already know which train you're taking).
Anonymous | 17.01.24 - 7:44 a.m. | #
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'[letting] LNER slip loose of the government's regulatory shackles' feels a bit ironic given who runs the LNER franchise.
In some countries, you can only get a long-distance train if you have a reservation - which presumably means everyone gets a seat. It's a sensible idea, provided there's enough capacity. Unfortunately that's not something we're very good at providing here.
Martin | 17.01.24 - 7:52 a.m. | #
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It fills me with regret that the "Great British Railways" semi-nationalisation plan, one of the very few good things to come from Boris Johnson's premiership, now seems to be dead under Rishi Thatcher and Labour don't show much intention of doing something similar either. So the railways will limp on under this temporary arrangement designed to tide over the worst of the pandemic, which is neither franchising, nor service contract, nor full nationalisation, and which reduces the railway operators to nothing more than inefficient government agents and convenient scapegoats.
Anonymous | 17.01.24 - 7:52 a.m. | #
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A journey on SNCF from Paris to Lyon, roughly equivalent to London to Newcastle at 9am this morning is both significantly quicker and significantly cheaper (€104) than the LNER journey. And that's despite France having no competition from airlines on that route because of their domestic flights ban.
Ian | 17.01.24 - 8:06 a.m. | #
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There's no justification whatsoever for removing the off-peak fare. They could have had four choices - Anytime, 70min Flex (which as you show is deeply flawed), Advance and Off-Peak. All this does is make off peak travel for people who want more flexibility than a 140 minute window more difficult. LNER claim that only 11% of tickets sold on this route are off-peak or super off peak, but that's not a reason to scrap them. They call it a "pioneering project", I call it a way to make off-peak travellers' lives more difficult. I can't see a consultation on the LNER website but I hope as many people feed back to LNER about how bad an idea scrapping off-peak tickets is. Airlinification will just put more people off using the railway.
Richard | 17.01.24 - 8:40 a.m. | #
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This is a seriously bad move by nationalised LNER.
The recent move to single leg pricing led to significant price increases via the back door and this will also result in price increases.
Currently the Super Off Peak Single fare is regulated on many flows and can only increase by a presecribed amount each year (set by Government). LNER consider the Super Off Peak to be too cheap and want to charge more. Sunday afternoon, a Bank Holiday weekend, Newcastle playing at Wembley, going to the Great North Run - don't expect to pay the current fare of £83, it'll end up being nearer to £150, and with less flexibility.
Fancy stopping off at Peterborough on the way for lunch. With a Super Off Peak no problem. Not possible with this new ticketing regime.
Want to travel on the 05:40 from Edinburgh to Kings Cross. You'll find it cheaper to buy a ticket for the 05:48 and then jump on the 05:40 under the '70 minute' rule.
A complete farce which, like the proposed withdrawal of Travelcards, I hope gets binned rather quickly.
Hadders | 17.01.24 - 8:50 a.m. | #
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Who is going to make an impulse journey if they risk the fare being 150% more than they expected becase the Flex fare is sold out. And even if it isn't - the return journey might be.
Those whose journey is urgent and unscheduled, but essential, will be fleeced. LNER are preying on people at their most vulnerable.
Richard: There is a consultation. It's here.
Timbo | 17.01.24 - 8:53 a.m. | #
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Just another fare rise. Simplification - it's "simply" penalising those who travel off-peak (more accurately those who use off-peak tickets to travel) particularly those who have to travel last minute or whose plans cannot be narrowed down to a 140 minute window.
MKIan | 17.01.24 - 9:04 a.m. | #
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I'm a person who quite regularly uses a variety of different train tickets and this "simplified" format has foxed me.
Scott | Homepage | 17.01.24 - 9:16 a.m. | #
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"Replacing returns with singles priced at half a return didn't hurt passengers" - it did save the train company cash as it cuts the Delay Repay value in half on badly delayed trains.
DK | 17.01.24 - 9:29 a.m. | #
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For me, the big loser here is breaking journey. I often make use of this really useful (and I suspect under-appreciated) feature, especially on the return leg of return tickets as I’m never quite sure whether one is allowed to do it on the outward journey, sometimes breaking the journey over one or more nights. To be fair, it does seem a bit odd that on returns you have to complete the outward journey on the one date on the ticket but can spread the return over a whole month (I wonder if anyone has tried doing this on, say, a line with 32 stations with an all-stops service, doing one station per day).
Stephen | 17.01.24 - 9:33 a.m. | #
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Why do railways continue to ape airlines? Below is a contemporary (1972) description of the new TGV (gas turbine prototype). This design follows though to the production TGVs, but also can be seen in the Amfleet trains in the USA, also at the Waterloo International Terminal which looked just like an airport terminal, and is perpetuated on Eurostar by holding passengers in a crowded waiting area before calling them up to their train.
“IComfortable seating, carpets, low ceilings, small windows with curtains make for a whole new atmosphere, irresistibly reminiscent of an airplane cabin.”
Mike Jones | 17.01.24 - 9:47 a.m. | #
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Where is the evidence that the old fare structure confused passengers?
There's plenty of superficial evidence that this is a money-grabbing scheme by the operator, presumably under government edict.
Joel | 17.01.24 - 9:50 a.m. | #
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Steven, absolutely. It wasn't every stop, but my personal record on an off-peak return was spending two days making my way from Ipswich to Wick, and then the following month gradually making my way back via Inverness, Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds, and Lincoln. Went on quite a few side visits as well to cities not quite along the route. It was a fantastic holiday that showed me so much of this country, but such journeys will become a thing of the past if this change becomes the norm.
If the railway really wants to simplify fares in a customer-benefitting way, there's no reason why the three simplified fares can't be Advance, Off-Peak and Anytime. I really hope this trial ends up showing reduced revenue, as this is the only way that government will allow it to be reversed.
Suffolker | Homepage | 17.01.24 - 10:12 a.m. | #
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To the best of my knowledge all the train journeys involved call at York, so is there some benefit from split-ticketing?
Ian | 17.01.24 - 10:26 a.m. | #
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DK Abolishing returns doesn't affect Delay Repay, as a delay on one leg gives you a refund of the appropriate percentage of half the ticket price.
Timbo | 17.01.24 - 10:43 a.m. | #
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I hadn't paid much attention to this, so thanks. REALLY surprised there's no off peak option.
LNER, unlike most of the "franchises", actually faces genuine competition from a number of open access operators, Lumo, Hull Trains and Grand Central, so I imagine this is intended to counter them.
Mikey C | 17.01.24 - 10:48 a.m. | #
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Perhaps this will drive more passengers to rival company Lumo (First Group), which has cheaper fares for London/Edinburgh and allegedly more comfortable trains, though far fewer services. The most egregious example of airlineification (aka “revenue management”) is Eurostar, where it’s vital to clear cookies on your computer between checking fare availability and actually booking — unless you know from the outset exactly which train you want — to avoid the automatic price increase triggered by the algorithm seeing you checking first and then coming back to buy your ticket. But, then, BA used to have a stake in Eurostar, and that’s when the rot set in.
Labourer | 17.01.24 - 11:01 a.m. | #
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So they kept anytime OPEN, where you can travel a couple of days later, but removed anytime DAY!?
The mind boggles.
h2g2bob | 17.01.24 - 11:20 a.m. | #
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Quite surprising that 'simplifying' ticketing involves creating a new kind of ticket which didn't exist at all before!
The last time I travelled with LNER, I was in fact able to take a train before or after my booked service, since it had been cancelled. In the end I was only slightly inconvenienced but LNER refunded the entire ticket cost within a few days - in that aspect they are extremely unlike any airline.
Alan | 17.01.24 - 11:23 a.m. | #
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Even if it is less complicated (which it doesn't appear to be to me) it's still way too expensive. Add a partner/spouse and a kid or two and you can see why car is, and will probably always be, king for such journeys!
It's a shame as I'd love to take more long-distance train journeys, especially spontaneous ones, but haven't for nearly 6 years and can't see that changing.
Cornish Cockney | 17.01.24 - 11:32 a.m. | #
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Well of course if they want to be more like airlines, they have to have a Pilot :-)
I'll get my coat.
Steve
Steve Conway | 17.01.24 - 12:05 p.m. | #
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Additional point which explains why this is so good for the operator: currently the revenues from any ticket that isn't advance is distributed between the operators you could use, according to a set of abstruse formulas. That includes obvious situations where operators are in direct competition, but also gives some revenue for loads of edge cases, like travelling part way then taking another operator, or using permitted but non-standard routes.
Under the simplification, LNER gets all revenue for every ticket except for the fully flexible ones.
Henry | 17.01.24 - 3:26 p.m. | #
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I can see this being useful if connecting from a plane or ferry, but not much else
Kyara | 17.01.24 - 5:21 p.m. | #
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"In my earlier screenshot the 09:30 Newcastle service already has only four sub-£192 fares left"
The 4 left only refers to fares at that specific price - if you look now there are 8 left at a slightly higher price.
alex f | 17.01.24 - 5:55 p.m. | #
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Timbo - I believe that abolishing return tickets has affected Delay Repay. If the train in either direction is delayed more than 2 hours then 100% of the return fare is refunded (see for example the GWR site). I spend a couple of years doing London to Edinburgh and back once a month and several times claimed that full amount.
Peter | 17.01.24 - 6:17 p.m. | #
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At the moment it is easy to force the old style ticketing by starting or ending your journey at a nearby station so the journey includes the whole of the main route. e.g. Finsbury Park to Newcastle or Kings Cross to Manors.
It might not result in a better price, though.
Legally you have to travel the whole route as ticketed, hence you might need an additional single fare to get to your start point or backtrack at the end.
MilesT | 17.01.24 - 8:29 p.m. | #
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Simplification should also mean a fixed price in my opinion.
matthieu1221 | 18.01.24 - 12:00 a.m. | #
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It seems I'm alone in thinking this is a good idea, mainly because I'm stingy and only get advance fares anyway. An extra £20 for 70 mins on either side seems decent value.
Ed | 18.01.24 - 7:28 a.m. | #
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milest - do you have a reference for the legal bit about having to travel the entire route of the ticket?
Half a physicist | 18.01.24 - 8:03 a.m. | #
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With split ticketing, you have to travel on a train that stops at your splitting point. I don't think that any Newcastle trains stop at Finsbury Park.
Petras409 | 18.01.24 - 9:25 a.m. | #
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Petras - Correct, but my proposal is not traditional split, but extending the journey (needing a backtrack), so lack of a stop at Finsbury en-route on the main journey is not an issue for validity.
MilesT | 18.01.24 - 10:13 a.m. | #
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There are many price points for Advance tickets, all the way up to £178. Currently the Super Off-Peak Single acts as a cap on the price you have to pay for an off peak journey. By removing the Super Off-Peak Single that cap is removed, and there is then scope to sell pricier Advance tickets - pay more for less flexibility.
miker | 18.01.24 - 11:55 a.m. | #
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“In my earlier screenshot the 09:30 Newcastle service already has only four sub-£192 fares left, and they'll never last until February.”
Except, 2 days later, prices have actually gone *down*! The 09:30, which had only 4 Advance tickets at £52·90 and only 4 70-Min Flex tickets at £72·90 now has Advance at £49·60 and 70-Min Flex at £69·60 — with no warning about numbers remaining!
Thank you for pointing out it's effectively a £20 surcharge for the flexibility. That's something I'd be keen to pay to save half an hour on our journeys to London.
I appreciate that not its purpose, but it would achieve that for us in practice. Trains from Leeds–King's Cross leave 5 minutes after those from Ilkley–Leeds arrive. Journey planners think 5 minutes isn't enough time to change trains in Leeds, so always give us a 35-minute gap.
But the standard platforms are nearby (no footbridge required), and we nearly always arrive in time to catch the previous London train, on which our Advance tickets aren't valid. I'd gladly pay the £20 to be able to catch the train that's right in front of us and arrive half an hour earlier.
(Or, equivalently, set off from Ilkley half an hour later and still try to catch our original train. This is risky currently because if the Ilkley train is just a couple of minutes late and we miss our connection, it's our fault for setting off late and we'd have to pay for a full-price ticket on to London. This means we can chance it, knowing that the worst-case scenario is being on the later train, not being on the later train, not that plus a massive financial hit.)
It would also makes time before return journeys more relaxing. Currently if we're doing something in central London before our train home, we'd be clock-watching, anxious not to miss our connection. We'd add a big margin of error, then often arrive earlier than we need to, just to make sure we definitely catch the train.
With a 70-Min Flex ticket we could reduce the margin of error, staying at the museum (or whatever) until there's, say, only an 80% chance of our making the train, safe in the knowledge that if we hit the other 20% then we'll be allowed on the following one. More time having fun, less time waiting at stations.
So I'd welcome 70-Min Flex tickets on more routes as an option as a small premium over Advance prices.
Smylers | Homepage | 19.01.24 - 9:36 a.m. | #
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...and from 30th September LNER are extending their 70min Flex 'pilot' to cover journeys from London to every station between Newcastle and Edinburgh.
It's actually just-past-Edinburgh, so previous money-saving workarounds will no longer work.
Evil spreads.
diamond geezer | Homepage | 20.08.24 - 3:54 p.m. | #
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