please empty your brain below
For me, the far more dangerous situation is when I travel with National Rail on a paper ticket. I'm so hard-wired to swipe my Oyster at any reader that, on returning to the capital I often do that - and tap my Oyster instead of inserting my ticket.

The result of this is a full-zone fare being charged to my Oyster card! Much worse than card clash, and I seem unable to stop doing it!

Fortunately the Oyster helpline is quite efficient at arranging the refund...

Dan | 02.02.16 - 7:34 a.m. | #

I have the opposite problem. I have had a paper rail season ticket for nearly 20 years, but stopped getting it extended to include zones 1 to 6 only a decade or so ago, as I don't use the tube or buses regularly enough to make it worth the extra cost. I usually remember to swipe my Oyster PAYG (and usually remember to get my Gold Card loaded up before too long) but still from time to time try to put my rail-only paper ticket through the barrier - beep, red message, inwards curse - before sheepishly remembering to swipe instead. Must be getting old.

Andrew | 02.02.16 - 7:51 a.m. | #

I admit that I was not very aware of the said announcement whenever I entered a tube station. Maybe I hung on for less than five minutes for most cases. Pity for those living farther away and need to wait longer for their trains.

Patrickov | 02.02.16 - 8:13 a.m. | #

What IS the pickup range of a card reader? As the grateful user of a Freedom Pass, it lives in the supplied slip-case and seems to need a firm press on the reader to avoid the dreaded 'Seek Assistance'.

While the above would rate as a 1c in DG's Comment Value Hierarchy, I'm going to risk a 4c, by commenting that for journeys outside the Freedom Pass boundary I now buy tickets at a ticket office on the basis of 'use it or lose it'. Not only that, but Southern have messed up their online booking system so less incentive to buy online.

RayL | 02.02.16 - 8:17 a.m. | #

I used to hear the announcement as "card crash" and wondered what the hell they were on about!

For DG's irrational fear (which I an sure he expressed somewhat tongue in cheek) I might suggest........."So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." (Roosevelt)

100andthirty | 02.02.16 - 8:24 a.m. | #

I have occasional problems with double reading on the buses. The card reader can read the contactless card in my pocket, and I then use my freedom pass. As both happen at the same time you don't notice it from the beep.The fare is deducted from my bank account, and a few days later a balancing refund appears.So no real problem, but i'm curious how Tfl can link my bank account and my freedom pass, for which it holds no bank details.

coffin dodger | 02.02.16 - 8:59 a.m. | #

coffin dodger,

I am speculating but maybe there is something in the reconciliation software that if a contactless card transaction appears within a second or two of a freedom pass transaction and the contactless card is not normally used for TfL transactions then it is smart enough to refund you.

Pedantic of Purley | 02.02.16 - 9:07 a.m. | #

I was on the train last night and opposite me were a pair of men in their twenties talking about Oyster, Contactless, all that.

Most interesting was that one of them proclaimed he'd had no end of problems with Oyster. Two cards had died on him and he'd been unable to get refunds (by the sounds of it, he hadn't registered them) whilst on another journey he'd managed to be charged £21 for a journey from Zone 2 to Shoreditch (I'd live to know how.)

So he'd abandoned Oyster and there was no way he was going to try Contactless.

No. Instead he'd gone back to paper tickets.

You know where you are with a paper ticket, he said. They can't go wrong.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 02.02.16 - 9:14 a.m. | #

I guess that my issues are similar yet different. Not being blessed to live in London I don't face the horrors of 'card clash', but I remain angry that I cannot choose *not* to have a contactless card if I want a credit card. I don't want a contactless card. I feel vulnerable knowing that theives know that I'm likely to be carrying a card that they can simply tap and use, especially being female and tending to travel around alone. I like the security of a pin. But those who own the cards (who are not the banks, but instead larger credit corporations) insist that I must have a contactless card. There are instructions on the net re how to 'break' them so that they only work with pins, but the card companies are getting smarter and re-engineering cards so they are harder to break (or fix, as the case may be, depending on your viewpoint). It seems they like the convenience of having their customers able to 'tap and pay' for coffees, beers or pastries...

Antipodean | 02.02.16 - 9:17 a.m. | #

I'm more concerned about standing too close to a crook with a card reading device in a crowd than I am about card clash, so when my contactless arrived unbidden last year I got a RFID protection wallet to keep it in.

It's thin so sits inside a card slot in my purse, but I can easily get my bank card in and out of it when needed.

Cornish Cockney | 02.02.16 - 9:24 a.m. | #

It's well worth saying on the fraud issue that you will get a refund for any fraudulent transaction you report. There are also spending and usage limits which kick in, and banks do have monitoring systems to detect unusual behaviour.

Contactless fraud is apparently low - probably due to the spending limits imposed, and other card fraud types are higher. Of course you should always check your bank and card statements, even if you don't have contactless.

I've been using contactless for a while, and the only reason I stopped using it for public transport is that the ticket gates are noticeably slower to open with contactless. Never had any fraud issues despite me carrying a contactless card in my pocket for the whole six months I was using it for the tube. In contrast I had my card blocked when someone - and I still don't know where they got the details - tried to scam it for a holiday.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 02.02.16 - 9:30 a.m. | #

When a card I rarely use went contactless, I kept it enclosed in a small piece of kitchen foil in my wallet. (As you do). Then my often-used card went contactless, by which time I had stopped worrying (as you do). There's so many things that can go wrong in life, there's only space to worry about a small sample of them!

Malcolm | 02.02.16 - 9:43 a.m. | #

I ofter wonder why TfL didn't create an oyster key fob - to eliminate the possibility of me touching my wallet and the wrong card being charged

Jack Dougherty | 02.02.16 - 9:44 a.m. | #

I'm with Dan on this. I have bought rail tickets at my local station, taken literally 2 steps to the ticket gate, then swiped my Oyster.

It's got to the point that my husband and I spend the walk from the platforms to the exit repeating "Don't touch your Oyster, we've got tickets today" to each other.

My main problems with 'card clash' have actually been at work: we have card-operated security doors, so I spent a lot of time failing to Oyster into the building before I gave up and started keeping my Oyster card separate.

Ollyver | 02.02.16 - 9:50 a.m. | #

If a bus card reader can detect a card in your pocket - what about other less savoury travellers with little detectors skimming your details contactlessly?

We're waiting for contactless payments (on the local rail trains). We've had the 'posts' there for years, but it's recently been announced that implementing such will be delayed due to some hooha, probably bureaucratic. Like they couldn't get the required info from TfL?

And our (infrequent) buses still take money! In ever increasing amounts.

Bronchitikat | Homepage | 02.02.16 - 9:56 a.m. | #

Love contactless, use Apple Pay frequently - no fraud issues, on the occassions that i am dumb and forget to touch out you can be honest and CORRECT IT YOURSELF on the tfl website, which is brilliant. (Only 3 times per month, mind).

What is more concerning is how Oyster is lagging behind (no weekly caps) and for some journies using PAYG Oyster will now cost you more that Contactless even though its supposed to be the same fare.

Geofftech | 02.02.16 - 10:08 a.m. | #

You can buy card protectors that block the signal. They do work.

Kim | 02.02.16 - 10:19 a.m. | #

Incidentally, after using contactless frequently many people are forgetting their pin number, just like we have with phone numbers

MikeH | 02.02.16 - 10:38 a.m. | #

Meanwhile there is a problem with my Oyster Card payments so I have received an automated email from TfL that has supplied an invalid link to get to my Oyster Account.

Pedantic of Purley | 02.02.16 - 10:40 a.m. | #

My non-contactless (at present) credit card interferes with my Freedom Pass, so I have to keep them in separate sides of my wallet. But my Freedom Pass doesn't affect the door pass needed for work, unlike a problem described above, so I can keep them together. Anyway, all this makes me even more glad that I no longer have to pay for most of my travel.

amber | 02.02.16 - 10:51 a.m. | #

DG,

AFAIK you don't need to 'activate' a contactless card for transport use by using it with its PIN first. Am I wrong?

Certainly you can still use contactless at oyster readers even when regular contactless functionality has been disabled.

(I use TSB contactless to get 5% back, but it stops working at points of sale after a while, requiring reactivation with a PIN. When this happens I don't reactivate it immediately, and use my normal credit card instead. But the TSB card continues to work on TfL.)

JQ | 02.02.16 - 11:21 a.m. | #

Your Oyster card is contactless!

dubidubno | 02.02.16 - 11:40 a.m. | #

I've heard that you can disable contactless by cutting a 2-3mm slice anywhere around the edge of the card.

Or your bank might replace your card.

Ian Gibson | Homepage | 02.02.16 - 11:56 a.m. | #

I may be 2d but the other day I had a frustrating time presenting a card to a machine, failing trying another etc until eventually I realised I had the wrong card to hand....right colour. Cue social anxiety 'making fool of self'.

B | 02.02.16 - 1:12 p.m. | #

I understand that many banks and building societies allow your next credit/debit cards to be non-contactless, but you have to go through many hoops to achieve that. Many branch staff do not know that non-contactless is an option, but insist and behold, most suppliers will [eventually] concede - if you're subscriber, check back-numbers of 'Which?'. If not your local central library usually has copies. However, like cheques, non-contactless cards are doomed, only question is for how long before we must conform to what saves them money.

Joel | 02.02.16 - 1:28 p.m. | #

I embraced contactless early, and thought it was a great idea for my transport needs - before I noticed it was failing to register touches far too often.

It was always at the same station (Shadwell), I was very careful to watch and make sure I got a green light and 'card accepted' and yet more often than not I'd check my account the next day to find I hadn't touched out. It would then always auto-complete my journey to Tower Gateway (reflected a journey I used to make, and charging me more).

The Oyster/contactless helpline suggested the card was faulty and I get it replaced, but I have never had issues with it at any other retailer or indeed any other station - and searching Twitter around the time found at least two others with the same issue at Shadwell.

So I'm back to Oyster. At least because it deducts the payments in real time, you can look and make sure it's doing it right, rather than having to notice days later, remember what you did or didn't do, and chase up.

SamB | Homepage | 02.02.16 - 1:38 p.m. | #

JQ, I'm not sure if it's still the case but back when you could still buy cash tickets on the buses, I only had contactless on some credit cards which I never used, and if I didn't have enough credit on my oyster card It wouldn't let me use these cards to pay for the bus, so I was always forced to pay cash.

One thing I want to know, if they guarantee to refund any fraudulent use on your contactless card, what would stop you, making several contactless payments in one day, then contacting your bank saying you'd lost your card and getting the money refunded? Especially if these purchases were made outside your usual stores.

Luda | 02.02.16 - 1:49 p.m. | #

With my contactless cards, I was able to disable the feature by the method given by Gerry in the comments to DG's blog on 17th September 2015 - the day the blog itself went contactless :-)

I drilled a 2.5mm hole on the centre line, just above the final digit of the long number. It doesn't weaken the card, unlike cutting in from the edge.

It may not work for all cards apparently.

Bob Lindsay-Smith | 02.02.16 - 2:05 p.m. | #

On a related matter, how can ticket inspectors check if you have paid your fare using a contactless bank card?

As a regular bus traveller in central London, ticket inspections seem to have become more infrequent. Is this related to contactless payment perhaps?

Max Wellhouse | 02.02.16 - 2:10 p.m. | #

If there's a ticket inspection (still reasonably frequent on DLR) the same device that reads an oyster can also read a contactless bank card. The difference is the validity check is off line, rather than instant.

IslandDweller | 02.02.16 - 2:19 p.m. | #

Max, when you touch in, a note is made on the tfl computer that your card has entered the system. They don't take any money until the end of the day, because it is not until then that they know how much to take

Ian Gibson | Homepage | 02.02.16 - 2:19 p.m. | #

Max - basically if you get inspected, the system takes a note that you have been inspected. When they Overnight they then check your journey history. If you've not touched in you get a "Revenue Inspection Charge" - either the max Oyster fare or a penalty fare. And if you do it lots, you'll probably be referred for prosecution.

So the inspector doesn't know and can't do anything to you, but the system will get you in the end ;)

Source:
http://www.stationmasterapp.com/blog/2014/07/contactless-questions/

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 02.02.16 - 2:19 p.m. | #

I have had a contact-less debit card for some time, I also have a Freedom Pass-for 10 years- and an Oyster Card. The Oyster is for network rail journeys before 9.30 or for friends to use if out with me, and they top it up!
Never had any trouble with cards clashing.
The Freedom Pass, which is my most used card , I keep in its own stiff holder-Not good to bend a contact-less card as I think there is a thin wire around the edge which is the aerial.
Bank/Credit and Oyster cards I keep in a separate wallet where the fact that there are several card together gives enough rigidity to protect from bending.
I only use the contact-less bank card at supermarkets or McDonalds.
If travelling outside London zones I buy ticket at ticket office. I only buy tickets on line for International trains.
I did accidentally pay for a bus fare with my bank card once, but I let TfL keep the fare.
I like the contact-less system as long as it is secure. The magnetic strip system used before “chip and pin” was quite vulnerable to fraud.
Not sure if I like the Apple Pay scheme, but then I am not an Apple user.
Well dg perhaps soon we will get a report of your first contact-less purchase, you should try it out.

John | 02.02.16 - 2:22 p.m. | #

@ JQ
You DO have to use a PIN (or register receipt with your bank) before using a card contactlessly. Otherwise the postman or someone using a shared mailroom would be able to 'borrow' and use it before delivery, still sealed in its envelope !


@ DG et al
Some banks (e.g. M&S, Halifax, Santander) will issue non-contactless cards if you make enough fuss. Others (e.g. Citi, Tesco, Santander Select) will refuse because they are too arrogant to care about mere customers that pay their salaries.

Plan B is to use a paper punch to make a hole on the centre line above the last digit of the long number. That breaks the aerial loop, which may be visible by shining a bright light through the card, e.g. the LED torch / flash on a smart phone. However, cards are becoming more opaque and the loop design varies, so Plan C is to make a cut in the card's top edge.

Don't let the banks force you to have a card that a thief, colleague or carer can use repeatedly without a PIN !

Gerry | 02.02.16 - 2:45 p.m. | #

As a provincial dwelling Senior Railcard holder it's no use me using contactless on TfL Underground and trains as it won't give me the one-third discount which my Oyster will as I've registered the discount with it.

Roger | 02.02.16 - 2:48 p.m. | #

At last!! After having* to read countless contactless (see what I did there :) stories it is with great joy that I now read you have finally been forced(?) into having a said contactless card...no more excuses about about how much a problem it must be if you had one. You will soon get use to it I guess...just as you did "chip & PIN" and using a computer/laptop/smartphone/interweb

*yes I know I don't really have to read DGs blog...but I do, I mean my world would be the lesser if not and yes I know there are other blogs I can read or not as the case may be...

Grumpy Anon | 02.02.16 - 4:06 p.m. | #

I'm in the reverse situation to DG. My old debit card was contactless and I did use it for some regular shopping purchases. I even used it on a bus to "rescue" people who tried to pay cash not long after cash fares were abolished. They paid me the bus fare and I tapped my card. Then some crooks tried to extract money out of my account so cards cancelled etc. My new debit card has no contactless functionality so I've gone backwards although it's no great hardship.

I have two Oyster Cards which have special validities so there is no point whatsoever me using contactless as it would cost me more money - assuming I even had a card that worked.

To pick up on DG's point about Travelcards - I do think Travelcard holders have to be careful. It doesn't take too much pondering to see a future where TfL decide they don't want Travelcard anymore - just capped travel or "account based" travel. The TOCs, I am sure, would love to get rid of a "bargain" unlimited use ticket provided technology offered some sort of alternative. Ironic that the Mayoral Candidates are all bleating about "protecting" the Freedom Pass for which they have NO responsibility when they'd probably have a far better case to say they would protect the Travelcard product. Once "clever" Oyster is replaced with "dumb" Oyster and back room processing then TfL can argue they can replicate Travelcard via caps and should no longer sell it or accept it.

PC | 02.02.16 - 4:13 p.m. | #

The station nearest to where I work is not the one my train comes into, but happens to be a "London terminal" at the limit of validity of my season ticket, so when I use that station I always have to consciously think whether I'm going south (season ticket) or north (Oyster). If I get it wrong either way I'll have an unresolved Oyster fare to deal with.
I've discovered, however, that my season ticket will work the gates at London terminals, whether there is a valid route to it from my home station or not!

timbo | 02.02.16 - 8:52 p.m. | #

I hope oyster doesn't disappear. I am very absent minded old lady, capable of losing anything. If I lose my oyster no big deal but losing a bank card is a major inconvenience. There are disadvantages in having your whole life on one card.

Maggie | 02.02.16 - 9:43 p.m. | #

I don't think Oyster is likely to disappear any time soon, but you can buy a debit card that's pre-loaded with money and not linked to a bank account. Perhaps Oyster will become just another debit card one day.

Barney | 02.02.16 - 10:08 p.m. | #

coffin dodger,

If your contactless card can be read in your pocket, why doesn't the reader manage to see my card until I hold it within a few millimetres of the reader? I think something more complex might be happening.

PoP,

I think your idea would lead to a lot of contactless card users being given a free ride just because they happened to board before a pensioner!

AS | 02.02.16 - 10:09 p.m. | #

For all these worries about crooks in crowds with contactless readers pilfering cash off contactless cards, how would that work?

I'm no expert, but wouldn't they need to have some sort of portable card reader which was somehow active and online at all times on their person, but also need to have registered all their details, including bank accounts, with Visa/Mastercard or whoever so that the £30 (or whatever value they hypothetically choose to nab) has somewhere to 'go'? And this thief would then need to be paying Visa/Mastercard their 1% or whatever their cut is for processing the payment - all of which would make them very easy to track down.

andy c | 03.02.16 - 12:44 a.m. | #

@ Andy C "For all these worries about crooks in crowds with contactless readers pilfering cash off contactless cards, how would that work?"

See lone woman walking at night (or simply in an area that is relatively uninhabited). Know she is likely to be carrying a contactless card. Pull a knife, demand card and run. Or bash her on the head and nick her bag. Or, simply nick a bag or pick a pocket or two. I'm not saying that contactless cards cause such incidents, but they do raise the potential reward of a mugging because people are likely to be carrying cards that they can use right away for small purchases of booze, fags, etc.

Antipodean | 03.02.16 - 6:36 a.m. | #

In the olden days, they used to use a money system that didn't require any verification at all. It was called "cash" and comprised various pieces of paper and metal which represented money of different values.

Not only did people get mugged for this cash. People could even break into a bank and steal a million pounds and the bank could do nothing to cancel the payment!

Thank heavens we all switched to plastic. Not everything was better in the olden days!

Dan | 03.02.16 - 7:19 a.m. | #

I think the concern over theft or fraud involving contactless cards is not so much that someone might pinch the physical card, or deduct amounts from it directly, but more that someone could read the card details remotely, and then clone the card. It might be a while before you realised that someone else was using up any remaining balance, or charging things to your account (how would a clone of a season ticket get picked up?).

The readers use a radio signal, and the power is dialed down very low on the gateline so it only picks up the card within a few milli/centimetres. The power can be dialed right up to work over a distance of at least several metres. You can see why that would not work at a gateline, but a scammer with a scanner in a crowd could get dozens of people. At least, that is the concern.

Check your journey profile, and when you top up.

Andrew | 03.02.16 - 8:34 a.m. | #

I agree with Sam B @ 1:38pm re contactless not always registering.

My husband had the same problem at Victoria and unfortunately you can't claim for more than 2 incomplete journeys a month. It was happening 2-3 times a week, so he's gone back to using Oyster as well.

Cornish Cockney | 03.02.16 - 9:32 a.m. | #

@ Dan

If someone steals £30 in cash it's a one-off. If someone steals your contactless card they can use it to steal from you again and again. OK, at some stage they may be asked for a PIN, but the risk is obviously greater.

There have also been many cases of relatives using a vulnerable person's contactless card without authorisation. If the victim then makes a purchase requiring a PIN then the contactless scam can start all over again.

And how can a bus or tube gateline ask for a PIN?

Gerry | 03.02.16 - 11:02 a.m. | #

@ Gerry - they can't use it to steal from you again and again, or indeed at all. Any stealing is done from the bank (who refund fraudulent payments to you so your loss is nil).

Tim | 03.02.16 - 3:07 p.m. | #

@ Tim

No Sir, if someone gets possession of my card and uses it without my permission, they have stolen from me, exactly as if they had taken £30 in notes from my wallet.

It's true that IF I notice it and IF I hassle the bank enough, I'll probably get a refund for contactless theft. Fortunately I probably would notice, unless it was a supermarket or somewhere I shop frequently.

But it's only too easy for vulnerable people to become victims of repeated, non-reimbursed thefts.

Gerry | 04.02.16 - 11:29 p.m. | #











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