dg comments

please empty your brain below

I wouldn't have too many issues if the M25 was made the official border for London, it's been the unofficial border for a while now.

Still anon | 29.10.16 - 7:54 a.m. | #

You might not have many issues, but that wouldn't stop there being many issues.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 29.10.16 - 8:17 a.m. | #

The words of an inner Londoner.

I'd like to see you convince the people of Ashtead that they are "officially in London"

John | 29.10.16 - 8:39 a.m. | #

Your view down over the sweep of the M25. How the trees have grown since 2011. In another 5 years the motorway could be completely hidden from view.

Petras409 | 29.10.16 - 8:42 a.m. | #

I was commuting daily along the section of the M25 between junctions 8 and 6 from September 1978. I hadn't realised that it wasn't 'opened' for another 8 years!

Richard K | 29.10.16 - 9:07 a.m. | #

Being counted as in London or outside really does matter to some people.
I can still remember the LCC being replaced by the GLC, and the disappearance of Middlesex.
The good people of Ruislip Eastcote Pinner and Ickenham all were convinced it was a Labour plot and signaled the end of the world.

Michael | 29.10.16 - 10:56 a.m. | #

This, or the other side of the M25, is where I thought would be a far more sensible place for a new airport than much further out in the Thames Estuary. It's roughly twice as near to Westminster as the Isle of Grain, within London, near separate tube and rail lines that could be extended. Or a New Town.

Toby | 29.10.16 - 11:12 a.m. | #

Be suprised how many people living in Havering still think they live in Essex. Just look at some of the traders addresses in the local Romford Recorder.

Agent Z | 29.10.16 - 2:01 p.m. | #

Even worse, Enfield Council gives their town hall as being in Middlesex!

Not Diamond Geezer | 29.10.16 - 3:52 p.m. | #

Well, does Havering "really" feel like London? I'd not have said so. And it was unambigiously wholly in Essex for many centuries: the mere 51 years its been in Greater London (while retaining an Essex postal address until the Royal Mail made adding counties non-obligatory, as well as eg non-London phone numbers) is just a blink of an eyelid in historic terms. Same applies for quite a few other "outer London" places: and indeed other places affected by Edward Heath mucking about the county boundaries.

(There's a village near me now that has a plaque that reads "Best Kept Village of the Year in Berkshire 1973; Best Kept Village of the Year in Oxfordshire 1974". I have strong suspicions that for most locals the previous 900 years of history counts more than the last 42)

Dominic H | 29.10.16 - 5:09 p.m. | #

@Not Diamond Geezer
Enfield is in Middlesex. The county is still used as a postal address.

Sara | 29.10.16 - 5:11 p.m. | #

Pretty sure that Enfield is in the London Borough of Enfield.

Kirk | 29.10.16 - 5:46 p.m. | #

In 1992, the Local Government Boundary Commission undertook its first periodic review of Greater London, and proposed that areas of Havering to the east of the M25 be transferred out of London. Here's their 20 page typewritten report, with maps. [pdf].

Residents of Great Warley agreed, so were transferred to Brentwood. But residents of North Ockendon (and most local politicians) strongly disagreed, so they stayed in London.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 29.10.16 - 5:49 p.m. | #

Some confusion above. Every time this topic comes up, people confuse where somewhere is for local government purposes with where it is for postal purposes. For many places, of course, it is the same, but for many other places it is and/or was different.

Add into this heady mix the notion of "ceremonial counties", and such things as the transfer of Potters Bar from Middlesex to Hertfordshire, or the question of whether Ashford is in Middlesex or Surrey (or indeed Kent!), and chaos ensues!

Malcolm | 29.10.16 - 6:34 p.m. | #

Ceremonial counties were meant to remove the complications of constant flux created by a big reordering in counties and the structure of local government every ten years or so for the previous 30.

It was especially meant to deal with new administrative counties created with no county council and only one borough/district/city council (with county-level functions). These entities (which would have been called 'county boroughs' back before '74) needed something to let them stay part, pedantically, in the county they were removed from administratively (either on creation, or in '74 with Avon, Cleveland and Humberside counties never catching on as counties and thus not becoming ceremonial counties).

So we have, administratively, in England:
1) Counties with a county council and district/borough/city councils underneath (eg Hertfordshire, Hampshire)
2) Counties with no county council and multiple borough/city councils that function as if county councils (eg Berkshire, Greater Manchester)
3) Counties with a county council, but no subdivisions or layer underneath (eg Isle of Wight, Rutland)
4) Counties with no county council, but one borough/city council that functions as if a county council (eg Thurrock, Southampton)
5) A County with no county council, but 30-something borough councils and a city council that have more powers than a standard borough council, but less than a standard county council. The boroughs (and city) of this council are overseen, along with a sui generis city, by a regional authority with more powers than a county council.

A total mess before we get to ceremonial counties that are merely lines on maps to avoid people of Rochester being told that they aren't in Kent as KCC don't administer them, and a way to allow the creation of a load of new counties without needing a whole load of people to do nothing but prance about in tights a couple of times a year.

In theory, there's no reason why the parts of Greater London east of the Lea/Roding/wherever they want to draw the line couldn't be made part of ceremonial Essex. North Yorkshire and Lincolnshire ceremonial counties cross regional boundaries. Stockton-on-Tees administrative county is in two ceremonial counties (the Tees being the boundary for them).

Si | 29.10.16 - 7:35 p.m. | #

The thing about 900 years of history is that only matters if it feels relevant, so is a 42 year old in Potters Bar that bothered about which county it was in before they were born, same goes for Ruislip and everything else that got administratively moved, for example, in spite of 800 years of history, I don't have any issues with the independence of the Republic of Ireland, because as far as I'm concerned its always been that way.

For example Russell Grant is a member of the Middlesex Federation - but he was born in 1951, as for the residents in Ashtead, I'm sure that they were just as vocal when the M25 was being planned, I suspect the age profile of protesters today would be largely similar to that of Russell Grant.

Still anon | 29.10.16 - 8:10 p.m. | #

I believe October 1986 was the opening of the completed orbital route. Bits of the motorway were constructed from the early 1970s as part of Ringways 3 and 4, including a section between junctions 6 and 8 that opened in 1976, which was designated the M25. Parts in Hertfordshire opened in 1975, under a different designation.

Andrew | 29.10.16 - 8:11 p.m. | #

Postal counties were always a weird thing. Officially they were the same as the 1974–96 counties, except in Greater London and Greater Manchester where the previous counties were used (to prevent confusion with the post towns of London and Manchester proper), and in Scotland and Northern Ireland which continued with the historic counties. Additionally there was a list of places that didn't take a county, mainly large towns and cities but also a couple of smaller places like Buckingham that shared their name with a county.

Also, the postal county of an address was that of its post town, rather than the county it actually lay in. (My brother-in-law used to live in western Gloucestershire, but because he had a Chepstow postcode his address ended in Gwent, which isn't even the right country!)

In 1996 counties in addresses became optional, and a few years ago Royal Mail finally deleted them from the postcode database, because apparently they were too confusing and postcodes make them redundant anyway. But people still keep using them out of force of habit – and some websites still insist on them and throw a fit if they're wrong.

Mike G | 29.10.16 - 8:19 p.m. | #

This always happens.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 29.10.16 - 8:48 p.m. | #

@Andrew
I wonder if it is called the M25 because the J6 to J8 section runs close and parallel to the A25?

Richard K | 29.10.16 - 9:04 p.m. | #

Havering is like Watford and Three Rivers put together.

Romford town centre is like Watford.

The open space by the Beam River is like the fields between Hatch End and South Oxhey.

North Ockendon is like Bedmond.

Sprout Eater | 29.10.16 - 9:27 p.m. | #

The M25 has blighted sections of the peaceful Kentish countryside through which we enjoy walking. It also drove away the preservationists from the former Westerham branch line. Not an anniversary to be celebrated.

John B | 29.10.16 - 9:38 p.m. | #

diamondgeezer - the Lord Lieutenant of the ceremonial county of our hearts (as oppose to Hertz, of course)

John Styles | 29.10.16 - 9:47 p.m. | #

I think you missed a comma after Heathrow in the second paragraph. Also, you didn't mention Iain Sinclair's London Orbital If you haven't, it's definitely worth a read.

SJM | 29.10.16 - 10:16 p.m. | #

"This always happens"
...surely "this" can't always happen? Might happen often or too much for your liking...but 'it' does not always happen.

dg writes: The thing I'm thinking of always happens. The thing you're thinking of evidently doesn't.

Grumpy Anon | 29.10.16 - 10:30 p.m. | #

And 51 years after Kingston upon Thames became part of Greater London, Surrey County Council still has its offices there.

You can take Kingston out of Surrey, but you can't take Surrey out of Kingston.

Added topograpbic confusion in SW London as people assume that because Teddington, for example, is in the LB Richmond, and Richmond itself has/had a Surrey postal address (which is often used, to distinguish it from its Yorkshire namesake), Teddington must also be in Surrey, which it never was.

The M25 was built over a period of about 15 years, with several parts originally opened as A roads. The first part to open as a motorway was junctions 6 -8, given the number M25 because it runs parallel to the A25. The anniversary DG is Marking is the opening of the final section, which is actually an Upgraded section of the old A6.

However, it is not really finished- many sections have been Widened, some several times.

timbo | 30.10.16 - 1:25 a.m. | #

And what, may i ask, is the thing you thinking of?

Grumpy Anon | 30.10.16 - 1:34 a.m. | #

As interesting as the the anonymously authored comment of 01:25 is I was silently amused by the fact that a post starting with an anniversary of the M25 posted at 00:25 had attracted up until that point 25 comments. Goodnight.

Lorenzo | 30.10.16 - 3:22 a.m. | #

"all of Epsom and Ewell and a considerable chunk of Surrey. "

Isn't E&E itself a considerable chunk of Surrey?

timbo | 30.10.16 - 7:39 a.m. | #

That final section to be completed was not originally intended to be part of the Ringway system at all. From South Mimms, Ringway 3 to have continued SW to meet the M1 at Scratchwood/London gateway/Junction 3 and then continue roughly on the line of the A312, passing east of Heathrow, Sunbury, and north of Esher, Purley and Chelsfield (whose railway station was moved to make way for it) to reach the current line of the M25 at the M20 junction. There is evidence that Ringway 3 was to have been called the M16

In the opposite direction, Ringway 4 was supposed to continue east from the present M1/M25 roughly along the line of the A414 North Orbital Road.

http://www.cbrd.co.uk/articles/ringways/

Whether the boundary of Greater London was planned to coincide roughly with one or other of Ringways 3 or 4 I wouldn't know.

timbo | 30.10.16 - 7:58 a.m. | #

Hey, it wasn't so long ago that the borough of Greenwich was bestowed with 'Royal' status.
Maybe Enfield should file an application? It'd sound quite fitting for it to have the Royal prefix, as if it was almost meant to have it

RogerW | 30.10.16 - 9:21 a.m. | #

Following the theme of Timbo's comment, maybe there's reason to be thankful we only ended up with just the one...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Ringways

RogerW | 30.10.16 - 9:29 a.m. | #

@Goger W
Isn't Royal Enfield where the eggs come from that go into Duchy Originals?

timbo | 30.10.16 - 1:50 p.m. | #

I believe thst the Jcts 6-8 section was buit as part of the construction of the M23 - the M25 was planned for the future, but at the time they buit 6-8 so that the Merstham interchange could be completed.

I also seem to recall hearing that the M25 was intended to double as a military road - to either protect London from invaders, or to prevent Londoners getting out. I never really believed this until one day I came across a group of armed Ghurkas lying in the long grass near the top of Reigate Hill.

Tony (Somerset) | 30.10.16 - 2:51 p.m. | #

" to either protect London from invaders, or to prevent Londoners getting out. "
Let's see
- limited crossing points: check
- pedestrians not allowed to cross (and very dangerous to attempt) - check
- 24/7 CCTV surveillance - check
- visibility of half a mile from any point in the cordon - check

All ready for when London becomes an independent city state?

In the Middle Ages they called it a dry moat. West Berliners had another name for theirs.

timbo | 31.10.16 - 4:19 p.m. | #

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