please empty your brain below
It took from 1968 to 1971 before a BR interchange symbol appeared on the map and in-carriage Victoria Line diagrams for Blackhorse Road because the short walk between the two stations was initially deemed unacceptable as an interchange so was ignored.

Roger French | Homepage | 08.01.18 - 7:48 a.m. | #

It does show the lack of any kind of consistency, firstly this is an interchange via the street, but there is nothing to make passengers aware of this, exit Upper Holloway and you could still turn left or right (never underestimate the ability of people to get lost) - I would stick up a big sign on the opposite parapet at street level with a large arrow pointing towards Archway, at Archway there are several directions you could go depending on the exit, something simple like paint a line on the pavement, for people to follow.

The second thing is once you show one interchange via the street why not show others - Camden Town/Camden Road for example, one interchange that isn't one the map and isn't an official OSI is Manor House/Harringay Green Lanes, less hassle than using the Victoria Line and changing at Finsbury Park to reach the Piccadilly Line.

Still Anon | 08.01.18 - 8:06 a.m. | #

Great to finally see this interchange, but wish TfL would get round to recognising the GOBLIN as a valid way to avoid Zone 1 for fare purposes.

I had cause last summer to travel from Highams Park to Highgate and was nudged to go via Highbury and Camden instead.

Michael T | 08.01.18 - 8:07 a.m. | #

Your OSI timings are "from front of station to front of station, not from gateline or platform" (DG 23/3/15).

Timings between the furthest platforms of an OSI might present quite a different picture in some cases (I'm thinking in particular about South Tottenham to Seven Sisters). After all, this is what the potential interchanger has to tackle.

RayL | 08.01.18 - 8:16 a.m. | #

In theory the goblin reopens this Sunday, but the signs around Grouch Hill all suggest it'll close again until June because they need to raise the bridge at Crouch Hill.

It's a mess.

David @dtl | Homepage | 08.01.18 - 9:53 a.m. | #

The line stays open (with possible weekend closures) - it's the road overbridge that will close.

Gordon | 08.01.18 - 10:41 a.m. | #

Crouch Hill station - the TfL Journey Planner does give a 10 minute walk time to Finsbury Park underground station for a fast walker, but unhelpfully delivers you to the currently closed Wells Terrace entrance, and the extra walk round to Station Place is a good two minutes more.

Gordon | 08.01.18 - 10:53 a.m. | #

Problem: The GOBLIN station is entirely in Z2 while Archway is a Z2/Z3 boundary station. If I say, travel from East Finchley to Blackhorse Road and use the OSI, would it count as a 2 zone journey instead of one?

Patrickov | 08.01.18 - 11:06 a.m. | #

were there any other significant changes from the last map ?

dg writes: See first link in post.

ADS | Homepage | 08.01.18 - 11:07 a.m. | #

Don't have a map in front of me to check ...

Are there any other interchanges on the map where paired stations are shown as being different zonally? Presumably Crouch Hill to Finchley will be charged to include z2

Max Roberts | 08.01.18 - 11:32 a.m. | #

I guess an interchange at South Tottenham is not shown, as there would be problems with people walking in the wrong direction, South Tottenham being south of Seven Sisters/Tottenham Hale and not north, as shown on the diagram/map.

IsarSteve | 08.01.18 - 12:02 p.m. | #

@Patrickov Yes, it counts as an extra zone. In your example technically it doesn't matter, as the 1-zone and 2-zone fares are the same.

@Max I believe this is the tube map's first partial-zone-boundary interchange.

@Steve That won't be the reason, as the tube map already includes geographically incorrect interchanges (e.g. Bow Church is shown west of Bow Road, but is actually east).

diamond geezer | Homepage | 08.01.18 - 12:02 p.m. | #

The current Overground closure leaflet shows both Kentish Town and Tufnell Park a 14 minute walk from Gospel Oak. I’ve walked the Tufnell Park route which was about that, considering I wasn’t familiar with the route.

Also, Kentish Town West is an OSI of Kentish Town station and is a good 10 minute walk albeit too far to be shown on the Tube map.

If Junction Road station ever re-opens, it will be about 100 yards from Tufnell Park - another GOBLIN / Tube interchange.

Rob Healy | Homepage | 08.01.18 - 1:02 p.m. | #

The Goblin is closed until next Monday, so I like to imagine DG walking down from Archway to Upper Holloway, pushing the button on his stopwatch, and turning straight back.

The current route for rail replacement has them stop outside Archway station rather than Upper Holloway, so the interchange is even more convenient than usual - if you consider unpredictably timed buses convenient.

Graham | 08.01.18 - 1:42 p.m. | #

"never underestimate the ability of people to get lost"

i can indeed confirm that people do this - even people that don't mean to do it, when i tried to walk between Archway and Upper Holloway last week and wandered off south down Junction Road instead, and took me a full two minutes to realise, and had to come back and head east down Holloway Road instead. What hope for the regular punter?

Oh, and Upper Holloway and the rest of the Goblin is still shut anyway! Doesn't re-open for another week...

Geofftech | 08.01.18 - 1:50 p.m. | #

Probably missing the point but I popped down to Liverpool Street during my lunch hour and the poster map shows the GOBLIN as opening Feb 18?

dg writes: If a poster map is saying the line reopens in February, it's probably an old one and says Feb 17, probably.

Mitch | Homepage | 08.01.18 - 3:17 p.m. | #

The Upper Holloway / Archway interchange is very convenient but actually more so for buses. The GOBLIN gets you across N London quickly so I'll use it Upper Holloway and then get a 210 from Archway to, for example, Golders Green. Far quicker than slogging via Zone 1 or Highbury then Camden Rd / Camden Town.

On a day when half the tube was in meltdown I actually went to Archway on the Northern then walked down to Upper Holloway and got the GOBLIN home. Completely illogical route but was remarkably quick in the circumstances.

I do agree with Michael T's remarks about the fare regime on the GOBLIN. Far too many journeys, if going west of Blackhorse Rd, remain charged via Zone 1 which is illogical or are just charged via Highbury rather than allowing Gospel Oak as an "pink validator" interchange.

PC | 08.01.18 - 5:08 p.m. | #

If Upper Holloway and Archway are being joined together on the map, you'd have thought (as well as the aforementioned Seven Sisters/South Tottenham) Northwick Park and Kenton might get a link - it's about the same distance, it's a recognized OSI, and is a very useful interchange. If you know about it, that is.

Dominic H | 08.01.18 - 5:28 p.m. | #

Oooh I noticed something else perhaps you can shed some light DG: Dalston Junction and Dalston Kingsland are just around the corner from each other and well recognised as a connection but not indicated as a walking link?

dg writes: If the tube map showed every pair of close-by stations across London it'd be a right mess, so it doesn't.

Mitch | Homepage | 08.01.18 - 5:37 p.m. | #

I'd never heard the name of that line beginning with 'G' . It's a loathsome name I think. Is it official?

drD | Homepage | 08.01.18 - 5:41 p.m. | #

The name GOBLIN for the Gospel Oak to Barking line is quite widely used, and completely unofficial. It does seem to invoke strong negative feelings for some people.

Malcolm | 08.01.18 - 6:20 p.m. | #

This https://twitter.com/ridingthegoblin is the Twitter account for BGORUG, the group campaigning to keep open and improve the line since the '60s. Good enough for them.

Gordon | 08.01.18 - 7:57 p.m. | #

When I was new to North London, I saw that Upper Holloway was on the Holloway Road, so assumed that it wouldn't take very long to walk from there to the Piccadilly line station. After 10 minutes I thought it couldn't be much further, but it was.

Bob L-S | 08.01.18 - 9:27 p.m. | #

@Bob LS

Could have been worse. You could have tried to get to Edgware from Edgware Road.

| 08.01.18 - 10:05 p.m. | #

Dunno why people get so uppity about names like GOBLIN and Wimbleware when we've had Bakerloo for much longer.

Kirk | 08.01.18 - 10:15 p.m. | #

TfL has its walking maps and lists - including its list of "Journeys that could be quicker to walk".

And various people have made Tube maps with easy walking connections added, such as this one mentioned by DG back in 2003.

Andrew | 08.01.18 - 10:57 p.m. | #

Wonder what the traffic pollution level is along that Holloway Road (the A1) walk, lorries in a lower gear going up the slope on the walking route's side of the road. Seeing the interchange link on the new map my first thought was how unpleasant.

Pimlico Pete | 08.01.18 - 11:45 p.m. | #

TfL still have the old July 2017 map on their website.

Wayne | 09.01.18 - 6:31 a.m. | #

@Pimlico Pete they have made that stretch of road 20mph now so perhaps fewer emissions.

Mark | 09.01.18 - 10:02 a.m. | #

what is the difference between Archway -Upper Holloway interchange and Dalston Kingsland - Dalston Junction in terms of representation on the map? Something obvious is escaping me.

dg writes: The Dalston link isn't needed because you can change directly one stop up the line.

Mitch | Homepage | 09.01.18 - 3:18 p.m. | #

That stretched connecting line at Gospel Oak must be the stupidest piece of mapping for a long time. Perhaps they have done it because on a couple times an hour, the Goblins depart at exactly the same time as the North London Lines arrive from both directions, so people changing have to wait the full 15 minutes for the next one. More importantly, there ought to be a Tube/rail map of all the OSIs - it would me much more helpful than the list, and could do a lot for people discovering new route options.

NickW | 09.01.18 - 11:21 p.m. | #

Yes I see now thank you for being patient.

Mitch | Homepage | 10.01.18 - 11:40 a.m. | #

Perhaps Seven Sisters is omitted to discourage people changing onto the Victoria line as it can't really cope with any more ?

kev | 11.01.18 - 6:31 p.m. | #

Regarding South Tottenham to Seven Sisters, the more valuable interchange (rather than with the Victoria line) would be with the other London Overground line - Enfield Town / Cheshunt.

The problem is that the route to the entrance for the latter is more complicated if via the main roads, or the short route is through a quiet residential area where some people might feel uneasy after dark.

I think the same issue of quiet residential streets applies to Northwick Park to Kenton.

I do think South Tottenham would be better named Seven Sisters South, as this would more clearly indicate to non-locals where it really is.

Likewise Upper Holloway might be better called Archway South, and Wanstead Park to be Forest Gate North.

J M Gold | 17.01.18 - 10:37 a.m. | #











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