please empty your brain below

Depends on which part of society you live in, if I'm rich, I get my mansion repaired cheaply by East European builders, no doubt all living in one room, once these builders have made a few thousand pounds - they can go back and buy a large chunk of whatever country they came from and build their own mansions.

If I'm a British builder, I have little hope of ever owning my own home, as property prices are driven up by buy-to-let landlords, who fill them full of Europeans, who are here to earn a few thousand pounds, so they can go back and buy a large chunk of whatever country they came from and build their own mansions.

If British people had more chance of owning their own property - or renting economically, then there wouldn't be the issue with immigration, and by extension Europe.
I think there is another aspect to this: "I have been given no hard information about what will happen in terms of trade, regulation etc, if we leave so I'll vote remain" and "I don't care what will happen in terms of trade, regulation etc, if we leave, so I'll vote leave." Saying no is easy; understanding what the consequences of that decision would be is much more difficult.

And I am voting REMAIN.
If we use the analogy that joining the EU was like planting a tree, it required a deal of peparation and care of both tree (UK) and thd ground (EU) to make it work. Then move forward 50 years and the tree has flourished (UK has flourished and any arguments that UK would have been better out of the EU can only ever be theoretical). Now to take the analogy to its conclusion, try digging up the tree. In all probability, you'll get a very lareg messy hole (which can easily be filled in) and a dead tree!

DG ..... best article on the issue I have yet seen
REMAIN for me too, but then I'm the son of immigrants anyway. The EU may be flawed, but it's helped keep us at peace and given us many good things as DG attests to above.

It's a no-brainer, but many of those voting will be doing so with no brain. I only hope they don't outweigh those who would rather stay.
I know people who say they want to leave EU as they want England for English and no foreigners. I tell them that many that come here are from Africa, India, Pakistan, Cyprus, etc. so leaving EU they will still be here. The influx of workers from EU, keeps restaurants, shops open, the farms get the crops picked, and hospitals have nurses.

I tell them they can take their car to EU countries without having to buy extra insurance cover. I tell them they can have a European health card to cover emergency treatment. Avoiding having to get private health insurance, which for some people can be expensive or difficult.

I point out that UK is a small country, cold and windswept much of the time, and that by being part of the European Community they have the opportunity to choose to go to visit, live or work in sunnier warmer places, as many pensioner ex-pats have done in Spain and France. They seem to forget that at one time early in UK’s EU membership many British went to work in Germany as work was short in UK at that time.

I point out that if UK voted to leave Scotland would want to remain in, and so would vote to leave UK, meaning a border control and passport between England (non EU) and Scotland (EU). The same would be needed between Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland

I point out that the Polish shops and building firms pay tax, and created more wealth. I mention to them that the Calais border where France allows UK Border control in France (as also happens in Paris at Gare Du Nord before Eurostar), would end end the border would be back at Dover so many more illegal immigrants would be getting across.

Many EU laws have been beneficial for workers, as you say it is not all about crooked bananas.

I know several Polish people here who have applied for UK citizenship, just in case, so many will stay. They will have the benefit of a UK passport to live and work here and still have their Polish passports to live and work anywhere in EU. Us British will be confined live work to UK.

The UK press is biased and will print stories with an anti European slant. I think of myself as European, then British. Two terrible wars were between small European countries, lets not divide but stay united.
If you've ever done jury service, (in these parts, anyway) you won't be at all surprised that 'justice'/the right decision so often hangs on the most tenuous thread and, that thread is so easily broken by mob rule. Same with EU.
Sorry - get Out!
Bravo!
Well said Sir!
Tres bien!

Uncomfortable as it feels to have to support any position favoured by our odious PM, we need to counter the inevitable torrent of anti-EU rhetoric that will be promulgated as 'fact' by the out campaign prior to the vote. Oddly, the result in the Scottish referendum gives me grounds for optimism.
Back in the day we had favourable trading links with the Commonwealth. We pissed them off when we joined the EU.

Should we be daft enough to piss off the EU and leave with whom would we trade?

That and what John says.
Great post, I do worry about people who form their entire opinion on the fiction like the how bendy bananas can be.
It is manifestly not a "once-in-a-lifetime" referendum, given that it will be the second referendum on the UK's EU membership in your lifetime.

dg writes: Sorry, I meant 'generation'
In June 1975 I was 18 years old and voted in the referendum to stay in the "Common Market". At the time it was a no brainer. This country was in serious economic and industrial decline. Militant trade unions against 19th century heads of industry was a disaster for this country. Looking back now...how Edward Heath lied to us back in 1973. Nothing has changed. No one, and I mean no one ever mentioned political union with other European countries. Remember, this was less than 30 years after the ending of WW2. My parent's generation served and many died to keep this country free and independent. If any of us had been told the truth the vote in 1975 the vote would have definitely been a resounding no. Yes, lets keep close trade links, security and other important issues with Europe but lets not be ruled by them. As for that old chestnut that trading with Europe has kept the peace since 1945...Do you not think that the UK did not do business with Germany before the war or the USA with Japan? Of course they did. It is Nato that kept the peace, not trade.
Lies, deceit and spin, nothing has changed via Heath, Thatcher, Brown and now Cameron.
I will definitely vote to leave Europe.

"Those whom the gods wish to destroy they first make mad".

Some facts to ponder over...
Auditors refused to sign off the EU accounts for the 20th year in succession as they revealed that the spending errors are 23 per cent up on the year before.

British taxpayers will have to pay more than £800 million after the European Union spent nearly £6 billion in ‘error’ last year.

While countries across Europe were forced to rein in spending, EU bosses paid out £5.7billion to ineligible projects, of which Britain’s share is £832million.
Worried that this blog is becoming too political, as there's less coverage about buses in Bow nowadays.
And the smaller good things Europe does, like introducing power limits on certain appliances, so that eco-friendly engineering solutions have a chance to flourish. Without a market, there's no point investing in them, so the technology never improves.

Of course, a relative then ranted to me about how Europe was interfering with their vacuuming, so `good things' is somewhat in the eye of the beholder.

The advantage of the EU, as any collective, is that broad co-operation can override individual selfishness for the common good. The disadvantage of the EU is that broad-co-operation can override individual choice. The collective good can be a lot harder to see.
John & Bernie have highlighted the complexity of the problem, which I had hoped (naively) would be covered by the national debates!
I really don't feel I have enough information concerning the big picture in order to make a decision, and feeling less hopeful by the day that it will change!

One big thing that worries me if we leave, is that there will be no other ruling body to block or temper whatever disastrous whims our future governments may come up with.
Look how the Tories are forging ahead with their evil plans without the (admittedly equally odious) Lib-Dems holding them back - on the rare occasions they so decided!

We could be completely at the mercy of our government if we leave.
To comment again, this time Ollyver reminded me of something.
In 2017 "Roaming" charges will not apply for mobile phone calls within Europe.
Of course if UK leaves we will still pay the extra charges.

People blame the EU for taking away traditional filament light bulbs, then I point out to them that the same is happening in USA, Australia etc. and leaving EU would not see tungsten 100w lamps on general sale again.

Bernie you should try and think of yourself as a European and not a "Little Englander". As for the money EU wastes, perhaps we should think of the money the GLC wastes.
Stay in EU and have a say, leave and do nothing from the side.

For me I can see advantages in a European Army, defending the European Community nations.
The UK defense budget is large and our forces are shrinking.

I am often amused at how small some of the countries in Europe are and it makes sense to work together.

As for Democracy, well I always vote in the European Elections.
Enjoying the 'debate' on this subject - whilst being equally depressed by the fact that my 1x vote will count equally as the vote granted to the moronic 21-year-old in my household who never reads a newspaper, never watches TV news and simply has no opinion on the subject, let alone the potential consequences! But I guess that's democracy for you...
If the EU is so brilliant why is there no minimum or living wage? Germany doesn't have one. It took Tony Blair (remember him) to bring in this USA concept. It's now part of our socio-industrial fabric. If the EU is so brilliant why can Britain opt out of the working time directive? In their rota a junior doctor can work a 96 hour week. And we've opted out. There'll be more opt outs. I'm with Bernie (in case you haven't guessed).
Marmaduke Jinks, Germany has had a minimum wage since 2015 and is set at 8.51 Euros an hour.
These countries do not have minimum wage, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Cyprus, Italy and Sweden.
So most of Europe has a minimum wage scheme, and the few who do not have other similar arrangements.
(at the risk of an off-topic klaxon) - @Marmaduke Jinks - in fact, Australia had a minimum wage long before the US. It was established by the 1907 Harvester Judgement of Justice Henry Higgins.
I hope this is the last referendum in my lifetime.

Some things are far too important to be left to the public vote.

See also: Scooch.
@Marmaduke Jinks. The European working hours which stipulate a maximum 48 hour week, and rest times and holidays, are for workers benefit.
The UK was allowed keep workers working over 48 hours a week, but still has to comply with the rest periods, holidays etc.
A pity, but UK always seems half in and half out.
I think it is good to limit the hours a person has to work, all work and no play etc.
If we leave maybe employers will exploit their workers and go back to the days of long hours and dangerous practices at work.
I stand corrected Germany now has a minimum wage. So that's not an EU. recommendation then. In fact only 7 of the 28 EU countries have it. John is worried that if we leave the EU then employers will go back to long hours and dangerous practices. We have long hours John anyway. I'm sure that others like me have employers who get you to sign an opt out, so that you will work more. Where's the EU here? Dangerous practices are still covered by British laws John... British Laws like that minimum wage thingy.
Good flow of points from both ends of the spectrum on DG's blog.
The EU budget went down last time.
The auditors mentioned some errors- not good, but still it was audited.
In fact "EU accounts have been passed by independent auditors every year since 2007 as accurate, legal, regular and reliable". Furthermore, the EU has no debt or borrowings and the books are always balanced every year.

UK budgets get errors and fraud too.

UK's national budget is 5 times higher than the EU budget.
Marmaduke: You seem to be very good at demolishing your own arguments... The UK opted out of WTD. If it was to quit the EU do you think working hours would get better?

Bernie: When did you last see audited accounts for the U.K. Government? Thought so...

Already memtioned above some of the benefits of EU membership, let me add: Budget airlines, the GSM standard.

As someone who has lived here for nearly 18 years and calls the UK home, I'm livid that I'm not allowed a vote all, due to not having a scrap of paper called a U.K. Passport, this is something that could potentially affect me greatly!

As for a common view from the Mainland? Let them go, they never contribute anything, turn up every now again, demanding exceptions, special favours. Just too much hassle...

Do you really think that after leaving, the UK would get a good deal? (Rofl)
John, without starting an online argument I do resent you labelling me a "Little Englander". This is both patronising and wrong. Why on earth should I think of myself as European. I was born in this country and am English. I have travelled a lot and can appreciate so many other countries and how we can learn from them. I do NOT want to be ruled by them. This type of political correctness labelling is nonsense in the extreme. Anyone who dares to critise immigration is automatically a racist and so on. My argument with the whole concept of a United States of Europe is that it can never work. Different societies, cultures religions, economics and languages all being ruled under the umbrella of Brussels and Strasbourg. John, I bet you were one of the sheep that wanted the UK to join the EURO. Remember all the propaganda, this country would decline financially into meltdown, there was only one decision to make. Now here we go again with the referendum. No sane person can still believe politicians are telling us the truth about Europe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLeFfiYgcro
Bernie, no offence intervened. Sorry if you found it so.
I do like the Euro and I have a Euro bank account as well as a Stirling one.
Despite all the predictions in the UK press of the Euro collapsing it has now been around for 15 years and is used by about 380 million people.

Of course most British have to Exchange money just to cross the channel.
To lighten things a little, perhaps- thinking of an early dg post, when we all use contactless cards the Euro and the Pound as cash will not exist.

Lots of different societies and cultures living and working together is what many people like about cosmopolitan London.
I prefer to see people co-existing and co-operating rather than arguing and putting barriers up.

I was born in England, but unless we move our island we are only just over 20 miles from mainland Europe, and at one time were joined.
We are almost joined again now with Eurotunnel, and maybe one day they will build a bridge.
I am English, but enjoy being part of the wider European community.

It will be interesting as the referendum draws closer to watch the pros and con from both sides.
The European Social Fund (the EU's main financial body) recently injected money into adult education in the UK, making up for budget losses caused by the funding cuts authorised by the government, and enabling colleges to continue to offer subsidised education for people on benefits. Without that funding, many classes would have been cancelled, and thousands of adults who receive subsidised education (like myself) would lose out on a chance of education. Some colleges may even have been forced to close.
As the arguments in this discussion, this decision is possibly too big to make because there are just too many issues that no-one can make a fully informed decision.

Leaving the EU is a very big leap into the unknown - will it free the UK from the being held back by the EU, or will the UK decline as we become more isolationist ? No-one knows the answer, but there is something to be said for the status quo. The EU has some bad bits, but at least we know what those are, and can try to deal with them. Leaving the EU will just change the bad bits into something we don't expect.

So my view is better the devil you know.
So Southern Heights you say we opted out of the WTD. That's correct. So where's the benefit there of belonging in the EU? And paying the huge cost that we do. What good has that opt out been for the working person? Our own laws have helped us - minimum wage. Not the so called EU ones.
No real comment to add except to mention that I've got a Stirling bank account, too. Makes my money go really fast...
Thanks John, good post. No offence taken. That is what I like about Diamond Geezer. Many different opinions and view points, all relevant and well thought out. No Trolls but sensible discussion.
A big thank you to DG for running such a great site.
IMHO, there should be three choices:

1 - Stay as we are. (REMAIN)

2 - Stop (undo?) political union, but keep economic trade agreements. (THIRD WAY)

3 - Completely leave EU. (LEAVE)
+1 to GeoffTech: We need more posts on buses in Bow!
-1 to GeoffTech: We "need" less posts on buses in Bow!
I once did a bike trip through Europe which included some participants from Syria. This was long before the current war. Even then, they were awestruck by how such disparate cultures could hang together with open borders and peaceful co-operation, while in their neck of the woods, their cultures may have had more in common with each other, but full of strife, tension and hatred. Europe didn't just have a spontaneous love-in after WWII; it was built on hard work, calculated political risks and a brilliant vision for international unity based on removing barriers. I'm all for that. We should be part of building something that can be a precedent for others looking for a way out of endless conflict.
Have you not been listening to anything that Nigel Farrage has been saying?

We do need control over our own affairs, and especially our own borders. The savings on EU costs cannot be ignored.

And Nick W's comment is very relevant too. As we can see, many countries seem to exist on internal strife, tension, and hatred. Should we not try to control the influx of such people into our own (fairly) ordered society?
This comment board is a microcosm of everything that is scary about a referendum:

- Entrenched positions
- Opinions ventured as fact
- Assumptions as to the reasons why other people hold in/out opinions based around assuming they are stupid/selfish/don't know all the facts
- Arbitrarily identifying one or two issues/examples as reasons for staying or leaving in isolation
- People whining about being livid about not having a vote, although if they have lived here for 18 years they could very easily become a British Citizen and have all the rights and responsibilities of the rest of us.
- Slagging off the decision making capacities of others

Quite depressing really as I self-evidently am also am guilty of some if not all of the above.

On the bright (?) side, we could treat this referendum as the chance for England to split off from Scotland, finally getting our vote on whether we want to be held to ransom by Scottish politicians which we were denied when the Scots have their own referendum.
Timing: politicians in Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland want the referendum date after the summer holidays. Earliest current date is the second half of June.


There are a number of possible reactions:

1 I know what I think, let's get on with it
2 a I want more information and I believe I will get it; so yes to a later vote
2 b ...and I don't believe I will get it so let's get on with it
3 seven more months? Mummy, make it stop!

Other responses are available. What's yours?










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