please empty your brain below
Well my first observation is that the C buses have nothing to do with Croydon. Central London ?

Pedantic of Purley | 05.07.08 - 8:34 a.m. | #

Ah yes, sorry.
The Cs are a bit of a mystery.
Table-scrutineers might find this list useful.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 8:51 a.m. | #

Excellent...despite Walthamstow being just the other side of the main road and hence regularly using at least three of the W routes I'd never realised they got the letter from the area. Duh to me!

I thought it was just because they were weeny buses (as opposed to double deckers).

NiC | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 9:15 a.m. | #

I vaguely remember the original S1 Stratford Circular service back in the 1970s. If I remember correctly, the entrance was split into two with barriers - one side for the automatic turnstile, the other for the driver.

Brendan | 05.07.08 - 9:21 a.m. | #

Some thoughts:

In it's early days the C2 was marketed as the 'Camden hoppa', so that may explain that particular C. The C11, several years it's predecessor, did originally run mostly within said borough too, but I don't know if there was any direct relation between letter and area there. The others.. Chelsea? Central? *shrug*

There was a P3 in the Peckham series, and later the P11, but both have been turned back to normal 'numbered' routes - the 343 and 381 respectively, as they gained night versions. When the night bus network was deliberately distinct from the day one, it wouldn't do to have a route simply run 24 hour, and an 'NP3' probably sounded a bit too silly.

Nico | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 9:50 a.m. | #

Could 'C' be Central? OK, so the C11 doesn't go near zone 1 but the rest do. The C11 covers quite a large area as well, so maybe it doesn't really fit into the H prefix.

William | 05.07.08 - 10:14 a.m. | #

The original reshaping plan of 1966 evisaged a whole different set of Prefixed-Routes:
A1 - 10 Waltham Cross (Abbey)
B1 - 10 Bromley
B11- 20 Barking
B21- 30 Brixton
C1 - 10 Croydon
C11- 20 Camden Town
C21- 30 Camberwell
E1 - 10 Ealing
E11- 20 Enfield
E21- 30 Edgware
E31- 40 Eltham
E41- 50 Edmonton
F1 - 10 Walthamstow
G1 - 10 Golders Green
H1 - 10 Harrow
H11- 20 Hackney
H21- 30 Highgate
H31- 40 Harlesden
H41- 50 Hounslow
K1 - 10 Kingston
L1 - 10 Ilford
L11- 20 Lewisham
M1 - 10 Morden
P1 - 10 Peckham
P11- 20 Putney
P21+ (not used)
P31- 40 Poplar
R1 - 10 Romford
R11- 20 Richmond
S1 - 10 Shepherds Bush
S11- 20 Stratford
S21- 30 Sutton
S31- 40 Streatham
U1 - 10 Uxbridge
W1 - 10 Wood Green
W11- 20 Woolwich
W21- 30 Wembley

The first routes W1 - W6 (Wood Green) and W21 (Walthamstow Circular) commenced operation on 07/09.1968, a week after the Victoria Line opened.
W5 & W6 were Saturday only routes..
http://www.isarsteve.de/wp-conte...ads/
wwgff01.jpg

I personally experienced an occasion at the old Stratford bus station when an elderly intending passenger asked "when the next 51 is departing" (she meant S1). From that moment onwards, I realised my dislike for prefixed route numbers was justified. Good ridance to the S2..

IsarSteve | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 10:36 a.m. | #

On the day the W21 started I travelled round in a circle four times, twice round in alternate directions. It seemed a cool thing to do at the time.

Ham | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 11:20 a.m. | #

Taking the R5 into the country definitely is a cool thing to do, mind.

Inspector Sands | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 4:04 p.m. | #

Also recommended is the book "Reshaping London's Buses" by Barry Arnold and Mike Harris, 1982, Capital Transport. Lots of phots..

felix | 05.07.08 - 4:21 p.m. | #

C1 and C10 are "Central", C3 was the Chelsea Harbour Hoppa when launched and the C2 was Camden Hoppa. The latter two are now so busy that they're double deck and hardly "hop" at all. As you know C11 was Cricklewood and it used to stretch to Kings Cross, was then chopped in half with a C12 on the southern section but this was replaced by what is now the 390 south of Archway Station.

Many of the other schemes such as Harrow and Bexley were the result of area tendering schemes by LRT when a mix of double deck and minibus routes were put in place to improve network coverage. "W" routes are really a mix of the original Wood Green scheme plus the Walthamstow retendering but this also reached into Woodford too (W12/13/14/16) to cover bits of route left over once the old 235, 236 and 206 routes had been chopped to pieces or killed off. As a Walthamstow resident I rather like our "W" routes and they're certainly very popular given many of them serve roads that 15 years ago had no bus service at all.

Paul Corfield | 05.07.08 - 4:40 p.m. | #

Thanks all for the additional information - especially IsarSteve. dg didn't reproduce my caveat about not being an expert!

The Worcester Park running day (10 August, including an RLH from Amersham dg) will be prefix-free, but since you mention the Xpress routes, I can admit we will be re-running the 1955 failed 93 Express.

Peter | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 5:12 p.m. | #

I seem to remember (although it may be recovered memory) that the W21 child's flat fare was 3d... or am I imagining that? it was no more than 1 shilling I'm certain (5p). Anyone know for sure? I do remember the perspex pyramid you put your money into, then the driver pushed a button that opened a trap door for it to drop into the depths.

Ham | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 5:45 p.m. | #

You're right, kid's fare was thruppence. I'd get it from my primary school in Shernhall St down to W'stow Central.

Gavin | 05.07.08 - 6:19 p.m. | #

The H2 has an H1 offshoot, as well, although it's mainly for schoolkids going to and from Henrietta Barnett School.

And of course the H of H1, H2 and H3 isn't Hampstead itself, but rather Hampstead Garden Suburb (an entirely different place, should any non-Londoners be reading...)

Venichka | 05.07.08 - 8:54 p.m. | #

I now remember the short lived and very small B1 bus operating from Bromley garage. It was a hail and ride service. It went from Bromley North Station to (I think) Eltham (Well Hall Station) via some narrow streets.

Incredibly I recall it only had 12 passenger seats when it was first introduced.

I cannot find any mention of it anywhere.

Pedantic of Purley | 05.07.08 - 9:48 p.m. | #

Oh, and what about the B99 which runs only in December between Norman Park (park and ride) and Bromley town centre.

Pedantic of Purley | 05.07.08 - 9:52 p.m. | #

P of P: see here for the B1,which did graduate to having larger vehicles...
http://www.countrybus.org/FS/FS.htm
http://www.countrybus.org/Bristo...istol/
BL\\_BS.htm

felix | 05.07.08 - 10:03 p.m. | #

BTW, a bit OT, the service on the Wood Green scheme as seen on my attachment above only lasted as such for about a week to ten days.
The section of Wood Green High Road between Turnpike Lane and Wood Green was so overbussed that there were suddenly traffic jams right back to Harringay & Palmers Green. Buses on the W1 & W2 were both very quickly cut back to Turnpike Lane Station.
The crazy notion that the W3 shouldn't run on a Saturday and that EVERYONE wanted to go Wood Green for Shopping wasn't a success and meant that the W5 & W6 only lasted until March 1969.

Lastly, as I kid I really enjoyed travelling the whole W3 journey from Northumberland Park to Finsbury Park for a 3d (1.25p) fare. The Child's Fare for the journey from White Hart Lane to Finsbury Park on the 127, 259 & 279 cost about 9d

Looking back, the whole Flat Fare thing was a bit of a farce really, as parallel buses on routes 123 towards Palmers Green and the 144, 217 & 231 towards Edmonton had higher fare levels imposed on them, to "Encourage" people to use the W4 & W1 respectively.

IsarSteve | Homepage | 05.07.08 - 11:13 p.m. | #

Good to see double-deckers back on the Bow Road, alas 7-year old Metroline examples. Still roll-on the end of the bendies...

Bowroad | 06.07.08 - 2:47 a.m. | #

Steve: I too used to take the roundabout W3 route from Finsbury Park to Northumberland Park to get to/from school sometimes. No difference in fare costs to a pass holder and it took almost twice as long, but it's a much nicer journey over Ally Pally than the 279 takes through Tottenham.

Around that time (late 1990s) it was one of the routes (along with the 41 and 144) that came under the 'Pass Right' trial - cash fare payers queue up on the left to pay the driver, bus pass/travelcard holders board to the right and pass the driver by without even flashing a bus pass. I don't know how successful London Buses considered the scheme, but it was dropped without any further word about a year later.

Nico | Homepage | 06.07.08 - 12:29 p.m. | #

There were "B" buses in Barking in the late 1980's. B1, B2 and B3. They lasted a couple of years I think to be replaced by 386 and 287. Some of the "B" routes replaced the original 287.

Gary | 07.07.08 - 8:33 a.m. | #

I used to commute from Surrey Docks to Blackfriars (proper Blackfriars, south of the river) on the P11 (no Jubilee line then). As befits Peckham buses, when the route was operated by single-deckers, some of them were named after characters in "Only Fools & Horses": Del Boy, Uncle Albert, Rodney and Cassandra I think. Always used to make me smile when Uncle Albert turned up to take me to work. "During the war..."

kenromford | 11.07.08 - 3:04 p.m. | #











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