please empty your brain below
TfL's engineers do know what they're doing but are no more immune from making errors than everyone else. In setting up these crossings it would be easy to insert 20 as the seconds delay rather then 2.

100andthirty | 03.11.21 - 7:18 a.m. | #

My book is open on how soon these anomalies will be fixed, now you have pointed them out to them.

"it's always better to assume professionals act deliberately rather than getting things wrong.

Really?

Blue Witch | Homepage | 03.11.21 - 7:39 a.m. | #

Other junctions where they got it seriously wrong were Tollgate Rd/Prince Regent Lane after the A13 upgrade, Gallions Reach shops when it opened, where traffic could not get out, forever held on a red signal, and High St South/A13 again after the upgrade.

The no right turn east to southbound at Mile End was because they could not find a solution that worked. I bet a more ambitious engineer could find one.

scrumpy | 03.11.21 - 7:55 a.m. | #

Have you written to the council/TfL about these? They won't be aware of the issue unless someone tells them.

Or there may be a reason for it.

Timbo | 03.11.21 - 8:30 a.m. | #

We only have a few such crossings here in Australia. At times excessive pedestrian red light time is to allow more cars to turn corners, but one very busy five way intersection we have is no right turn in any direction and pedestrians face a countdown then a long unnecessary period of no walk.
Our main roads are controlled by a state authority, VicRoads, and it is all about moving cars efficiently. Public transport, pedestrians and cyclists are all secondary considerations, with pedestrians at the bottom of the rung.
I am sure TfL's engineers know what they are doing and I expect TfL also treats pedestrians as a necessary nuisance to cater for, if it can fit them in.

Andrew | Homepage | 03.11.21 - 8:33 a.m. | #

Just a thought, as I don't know these crossings myself.

As they are two-part crossings, it might be the case that the central island would be insufficiently wide to hold a peak quantity of pedestrians, so it's considered safer to hold them all back on the pavement.

If it was a design decision, it is clearly flawed by human nature and should be revisited.

I think that traffic engineers prefer staggered islands for two part crossings, rather than 'straight through' islands.

Petras409 | 03.11.21 - 8:36 a.m. | #

Oh yes, your plans show that they ARE staggered islands!

Petras409 | 03.11.21 - 8:38 a.m. | #

You haven't specified whether you've just become aware of it (I'm regularly caught out by...) and/or it's always been like this, or it's changed recently.

Hopefully there is documentation specifying the delay times, then its a simple case of 'fat finger' syndrome if it differs from what was specified, otherwise will someone want to change it without the back up of paperwork.

Still Anon | 03.11.21 - 8:44 a.m. | #

According to recent Public Notices that I have read the junction at Mile End road is about to be redesigned and the right turn from Burdett Road into Mile End Road is to reinstated but the current left turn from Mile End Road into Burdett Road is to be removed.

dg writes: indeed.

fishislandskin | 03.11.21 - 8:46 a.m. | #

My suspicion is that the designer decided that pedestrians had already had enough time to cross and didn't need any more.

Traffic/crossing design which both prioritizes pedestrians and also takes human behaviour into account seems to be sadly scarce.

Alan | 03.11.21 - 8:51 a.m. | #

Perhaps you've found this already, but on this page there are links to 9 documents on the specification and design of TfL countdown timing schemes. I haven't read them all, but they might cast some light on the matter.

Peter | 03.11.21 - 10:05 a.m. | #

I’m not sure the presumption that pedestrians are the lowest priority for traffic engineers entirely holds water in central London. My (unscientific) feeling is that many junctions in the West End and around Euston/Tottenham Court Rd have actually been redesigned with all traffic halted to allow much longer pedestrian crossing times. This seems to have caused frustration for some cyclists, who are often prone to jumping a red light when they see no pedestrians actually crossing in their priority period.

Much more dangerous in fact is a staggered crossroads in Kentish Town, where the lights have been re-programmed to allow each set of traffic to move individually in turn (ie only from the north, then only from the east, south, west). It’s very dangerous if pedestrians are lulled into false security by stopped traffic on their side of the road but don’t realise vehicles could sweep round from one of the other compass points. There are red/green signs but no countdown, so the temptation to cross while the whole sequence goes slowly round and the road appears clear can be dangerously strong.

Labourer | 03.11.21 - 10:22 a.m. | #

My nearest crossroads is the similar. There isn't a countdown, but there is quite a gap between the green man appearing after the lights have turned red, and again at the other side after the red man has appeared and the traffic starts up again.

I get the former, and it's always better to wait as light jumpers are a thing at this junction, but pointless at the other end when the traffic is stationary.
As you say, you get to learn the cycles and gauge it on your approach.

Cornish Cockney | 03.11.21 - 10:33 a.m. | #

I've now read the TfL documents. The countdown timer is not separately controlled. It simply monitors the power supply to the adjacent red and green man lights. When it is first switched on it measures the green-off to red-on period for a few cycles (meanwhile displaying nothing), and in subsequent cycles it starts its countdown when the green man is powered down and counts down from the measured period to 01, at which point it blanks - and the red man is assumed to come on. However (1) the countdown is constrained to start at no more than 30 and (2) the logic assumes that the period when neither red nor green man is showing is constant. Either of these could result in a period when none of red man, green man or countdown is displayed.

Peter | 03.11.21 - 10:48 a.m. | #

You don't even have to go as far as Mile End to see this. The crossing on Bow Road just on the corner of Fairfield Road opposite where the registry office used to be is exactly the same, it is at least 20 seconds after the red man shows up before the traffic starts to move.

dg writes: it changes 'early' to accommodate a (rarely used) right filter for cyclists exiting Fairfield Road.

Lesley Madigan | 03.11.21 - 11:41 a.m. | #

The length of the green for vehicle traffic may be variable depending on traffic. The countdown time can't be changed so they set the pedestrian time to the minimum. When traffic is heavy you end up with 20 seconds wasted, if traffic is light you have the ideal 2 seconds.

Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 6, Table 11‑1

Bob | 03.11.21 - 11:50 a.m. | #

At the crossing towards the Blind Beggar, the cycles are released a few seconds before the cars. So if traffic is stopped and cycle light is red too , then I can get across to island. However, I can’t always get across the other side beyond the island.
Invariably with these crossings and others, I pay more attention to the traffic than the pedestrian signals.
Ever since Johnson changed priorities on traffic lights, I’ve always wondered to what extent they serve pedestrians.

Martin | 03.11.21 - 1:39 p.m. | #

I saw your post about '400 Things I Love About London' (24/09/21) and was pretty astonished to see countdown traffic lights included among them. I could have understood it more easily if they weren't so poorly designed, and here you are providing examples of them at their absolute worst.

Creating any set of signals - no matter how long or short the phases are - where pedestrians soon figure out that the red light to them is virtually meaningless leads to nothing but ambiguity and risk taking.

I know you don't drive but try sparing a thought for those who do. For them, a red actually means red, so when it finally turns green for them, they kind of expect the same sort of clarity, that they should be clear to go. Cue the cretin pedestrian with their face stuck in a phone.

Countdown lights actually would be great if they were more clear in their signals to keep traffic and pedestrians apart, but, as you've observed, yourself, it suits some pedestrians to ignore them, either out of uncertainty or frustration. And it's this ambiguity, pretty much wherever these lights have been installed around London, which is their fundamental flaw.

RogerW | 03.11.21 - 5:59 p.m. | #

You're right Roger, pedestrian crossings would work a lot better if only it wasn't for those pesky pedestrians...

Monroe | 03.11.21 - 10:26 p.m. | #

In Chiswick High Road they've just put a two-way cycle track along one side of the road so they've had to modify the traffic lights at all the junctions to give cyclists their own 'safe' periods. The problem is that the cyclists' lights are placed so other users can't see them, which confuses pedestrians, who are traditionally used to judging when it's safe to cross, not by when their light is on green but by when all the other lights are on red. This used to offer more time to cross, but now they get surprise cyclists coming through, which throws the whole well practised system into disarray. So now we have pedestrians, as you describe, and for the first time, having to wait impatiently for their green figure to appear.

In Havana in Cuba, they have pedestrian crossing lights with a red numbered countdown to show people how long they have to wait, followed by a green numbered countdown to show them how long they've got to cross, which removes a lot of the uncertainty that's built into our lights.

ActonMan | 04.11.21 - 12:25 a.m. | #

That southern half of the crossing on Prince of Wales Road where it meets Kentish Town Road is indeed dangerous if try to cross on red and you don't know what's going on.

See also the western half of the crossing on Pancras Road where it meets Euston Road: pedestrians see the eastbound traffic on ER stop at the lights and don't suspect that the filtered traffic turning right from the westbound carriageway is imminent - nearly every time in my experience. Perhaps it would be safer if the westbound turners went first.

tops | 04.11.21 - 2:59 a.m. | #

I was actually discussing the Prince of Wales/Grafton/Castlehaven junction, but agree the PoW/Kentish Town one is equally dangerous.

Really, the fundamental problem is human impatience: traffic planners expect pedestrians to wait in front of a deserted carriageway for a light to turn green, but in reality people try to assess the danger from visibly approaching vehicles and then get injured because a car or bike with a right of way appears from a direction they don’t expect. It’s the same problem as pedestrians ignoring crossings to weave across roads when a route is more direct, but planners rarely take this into account. In fact, in York Road SE1 a pedestrian crossing did have to be moved eventually because people coming from the South Bank kept choosing a direct (but dangerous) route to Waterloo station through the traffic rather than a prescribed, but inconvenient, controlled crossing, so the planners had to give in. Given all the recent junction modifications for cyclists, designers probably need to remember that pedestrians also need clearer signage and signals to stay safe.

Labourer | 07.11.21 - 1:34 p.m. | #











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