please empty your brain below
The Purfleet-Dartford Tunnel was originally also served by bike van shuttles. I think they were Fords, and looked like the then prison delivery vans in LT livery.
It didn't last that long.

dg writes: indeed.

Crispy | 19.07.23 - 7:13 a.m. | #

Perhaps TfL could rebrand it as the Pedalway...

Gordon | 19.07.23 - 7:18 a.m. | #

A constructive use for Johnson's folly? Who'd have thought it!

Scientist | 19.07.23 - 7:21 a.m. | #

Your solution - bikes on the Dangleway - was anticipated by Paragraph 15(1) in Schedule 2 to the Silvertown Tunnel Order 2018:

“ 15.—(1) TfL must secure the provision of enhanced river crossing facilities for cyclists and pedestrians between the Greenwich Peninsula and Canary Wharf and Silvertown for at least the duration of the monitoring period, whether by bus shuttles, ferry services and/or modified charging policy on the Air Line service.”

But the “monitoring period” could be just three years (possibly up to five years) after the tunnel opens.

Andrew | 19.07.23 - 7:22 a.m. | #

does the HS1 tunnel not count? You can take bikes on Southeastern trains off-peak, provided you don't mind not stopping between Stratford and Ebbsfleet.

dg writes: Crosses the river beyond the QE2 bridge. Also,, a ticket costs £20.10!

martin | 19.07.23 - 7:24 a.m. | #

A very sensible idea - therefore not one TfL is likely to consider!

The cable cars do run in a continuous loop with limited stops so maybe it could become rebranded as part of the Superloop network? That said, they've allocated all the clock face numbers on the 3 o'clock side of town so I think they'll have to start using the 24 hour clock. SL15 here we come!

JP | 19.07.23 - 7:32 a.m. | #

Dangleway with bike for free - I see a business opotunity for short time bike rental...

MK | 19.07.23 - 7:36 a.m. | #

Agreed with JP. It makes perfectly good sense, so it will never happen. The bike rental idea would probably be voiced against it, even though something like that (you'd have to charge, what - £3 to make it appealing? With two locations, staff, a decent supply of bikes fresh from Brick Lane) wouldn't actually be practicable in a profitable way.

Chz | 19.07.23 - 8:18 a.m. | #

Putting the dangleway to good use is a great idea. Another might be to make Rotherhithe tunnel bike/walk only - it's close to cycleways at either end, is already going through managed decline, and once Silvertown opens there will be less need for a car crossing there.

Ed | 19.07.23 - 8:19 a.m. | #

I'm sure it wont last long but as of yesterday afternoon, BOTH lifts on Greenwich foot tunnel are actually working.

DL | 19.07.23 - 8:45 a.m. | #

Although it looks like we're heading towards a bus with bike racks, it'll be non-standard with disproportionately high overheads.

The 'Danglebike Skyway' seems like a good option.

Love the committed non-commitment statement.
'we (are) therefore committed to investigating and delivering an alternative cross-river facility for cyclists and pedestrians'.

Still Anon | 19.07.23 - 8:51 a.m. | #

Can any government "commitment" or promise be relied on these days? Particularly in the context of a new piece of road expenditure which drives a bulldozer through our commitments to fight climate disaster.

Malcolm of Kent | 19.07.23 - 9:03 a.m. | #

During my spasmodic traversing of the GB coast by bike, I travelled on ten ferries and five bridges with dedicated lane for non-motorised traffic. For the Thames crossing I resorted to using London Bridge, though on a Sunday when it was quiet.

I'm not sure I would have relished using a dangleway, and certainly not a shuttle bus! I didn't discover the Tyne Foot Tunnel until I was on the far side of it (using the Gateshead Millennium Bridge instead). Something like that tunnel probably would have been fine though - far too sensible for London, I suppose.

Ironically, despite the supposed higher profile of cycling, I think all the structures and vessels I used which had good provision were built prior to 1980.

cau1khead | 19.07.23 - 9:10 a.m. | #

Does any bike count as enough to get you a free dangleway ticket (before 9:30)?

My three year old's balance bike weighs 3kg and could easily be passed from passenger to passenger...

TomH | 19.07.23 - 9:12 a.m. | #

In France there are buses with vertical bike racks attached to the back of the vehicle, so the usual service bus runs its normal route and cyclists can travel as well, no need for separate vehicles.

ap | 19.07.23 - 9:24 a.m. | #

incidentally, the Clyde Tunnel in Glasgow was built with a cycle path and footway underneath the carriageway - there's a picture of the cross-section on this page. It looks like it's fun to ride for the first half, but not on the way back out.

martin | 19.07.23 - 9:27 a.m. | #

Ordinary buses with racks at the front for 2/3 bikes are reasonably common around the world. They're a standard fitment where I live.

And I remember using the Dartford Ford bus - it was quite fun!

Betterbee | 19.07.23 - 9:36 a.m. | #

The Thames downstream of Tower Bridge is a long stretch of river, so one cycle bus crossing is unlikely to be in the right place for many cyclists anyway.

Getting the lifts fixed and staying fixed at the Greenwich and Woolwich foot crossings would massively help. The Woolwich tunnel always seems empty to me, so why not legally allow cycling through it, which it what happens anyway.

Mikey C | 19.07.23 - 9:39 a.m. | #

There have been attempts to introduce buses with front bike racks in the UK, but the powers that be are completely adamant that they're a danger to society and will cause mass death or something, so ban them outright. That cities in the USA and Canada seem to manage fine is, of course, irrelevant.

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 19.07.23 - 9:53 a.m. | #

This is genius. There are all sorts of edge cases and problems: electric bikes, cargo bikes, hand-cycles, tricycles, tandems -- the more difficult to accommodate, the more likely to engage Equality Act requirements. And the difficult cases are all too heavy to tote up and down the foot tunnel steps.

Anyway, the right fare is a bus fare. Any more and it becomes a luxury. Any less and it isn't worth collecting, but you can't trust a free service.

HTFB | 19.07.23 - 9:56 a.m. | #

In a couple of decades, if cycling is as popular as hoped for then someone will say why didn't they allow for a proper cycling facility when they built the Silvertown Tunnel like any sensible European country would have. Bikers just want to cycle they don't like having to stop and get on a bus, cable car or ferry, especially of they have to pay each time. I suggest a small bore dedicated tunnel alongside the road tunnel.

mikeH | 19.07.23 - 10:01 a.m. | #

Pedant's corner: QEII (i.e. the monarch) rather than QE2 (i.e. the ship) bridge.

Betterbee | 19.07.23 - 10:22 a.m. | #

Aren't TfL trying to flog off the Dangleway at the earliest opportunity or did all potential purchasers just laugh and walk off?

dg writes: no

Southern Heights (Light Railway) | 19.07.23 - 10:37 a.m. | #

Pedant's Corner 2: it's the Dartford Crossing - usually tunnels northbound, the QEII bridge southbound.

Pedant | 19.07.23 - 10:52 a.m. | #

Excellent use for the Dangleway.

Investing in /maintaining the foot tunnel lifts to keep them working would also be one of the simplest solutions!
Having used both recently (on foot) I can confirm that the Greenwich Foot tunnel has 1 lift working (south side) and it's the Woolwich Foot Tunnel that has neither lift working - unless it's changed in the last week!

Cornish Cockney | 19.07.23 - 10:55 a.m. | #

Given it’s free to cycle over any of the bridges, and in light of all the money spent in recent years on road infrastructure, junction alterations and traffic lights to persuade people to use two wheels instead of four, it seems entirely perverse to charge cyclists anything at all to cross the river just because they’re downstream of Tower Bridge. If the wretched Dangleway is suitable for bikes, free carriage is an inspired idea; and, alas - as noted - almost certain to be rejected by TfL.

Labourer | 19.07.23 - 10:57 a.m. | #

How about NOT banning cyclists from the Silverlink Tunnel? Given that it has bus lanes, there is plenty of space, and there are plenty of experienced urban cyclists who are happy to use the road in this way. I am fed up of idiotic highways agencies trying to ban cyclists from various roads, and am willing to bet that some cyclists will just defy the ban on cycles in the Silverlink tunnel in any case.

anon | 19.07.23 - 11:46 a.m. | #

Lane 1: buses and HGVs
Lane 2: other vehicles

So not an especially bike-friendly environment.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 19.07.23 - 11:53 a.m. | #

Out of interest, how do you get the free ride across the dangleway? Just turn up at the barriers and speak to a member of staff who will buzz you through?

R | 19.07.23 - 12:17 p.m. | #

Dangleway cabins wouldn’t accommodate the very largest cargo bikes without some changes, and may struggle with all kinds of trikes, tandems and recumbents.

Flip up seats at least, maybe a dedicated bike carrier cabin or two that can be put into the system on demand or always circulates but you have to wait 15 minutes or so until it arrives at the boarding platform

MilesT | 19.07.23 - 12:29 p.m. | #

In London I'm used to cycling in dedicated lanes shared with buses, taxis and motorcycles. Those particular road-users seem to coexist reasonably well.

But cyclists sharing a lane with HGVs sounds much more intimidating. Especially in a tunnel if there is no pavement to take refuge on. I have cycled through the Rotherhithe and Blackwall tunnels, and both were hair-raising experiences I don't want to repeat. Give me the Greenwich foot tunnel anyday, even when the lifts are out of order.

Not including a dedicated cycle lane in the Silvertown Tunnel seems short-sighted, but then I'm not the one balancing the books.

I do like your Dangleway suggestion.

JonathanC | 19.07.23 - 1:46 p.m. | #

Anything that isn't physically anchored to the ground with heavy construction is easy to get rid of when money runs out (or if another mayor doesn't deem it a priority -- looking less likely following this morning's news though). I wonder how long the shuttle bus will last? Would also be nice if pedestrians were allowed on too given the lack of a ferry, if it's a paid service, I don't see TfL turning away paying passengers to be honest -- better than carrying air.

matthieu1221 | 19.07.23 - 2:24 p.m. | #

You can get a 10 journey ticket (valid for 12 months) for the cable car for £17, so for regular cycle commuters this isn't absolutely awful considering their morning journey would most likely be free.

TP | 19.07.23 - 3:56 p.m. | #

I prefer the idea of the tunnel closing to motor traffic periodically (for 5 minutes every 20 minutes?) to allow cyclists through. Although I suppose it might take a while for the lingering exhaust fumes to escape, at least there won’t be the risk of HGV collisions.

Mike on a bike | 19.07.23 - 4:11 p.m. | #

Is the fare (free or £6) for a bike on the dangleway a fare for bike plus rider? Or a fare for the bike in addition to the rider's fare?

dg writes. Yes. No.

Man of Kent | 19.07.23 - 6:02 p.m. | #

Dartford crossing still has a bicycle service. I've done it, it's fine. Man in a minibus turns up after you request it at a phone in a bus shelter at either end. About 40 minutes end-to-end last time I did it. Given the alternative is at least 150 minutes riding, on a good day, it's a great service. It's free.

The Netherlands has hundreds of bicycle and pedestrian ferries that are usually about a Euro and are mad busy. Did one across the Waal a few weeks ago and there were at least 30 on it, and it was like that all day.

Jim | 19.07.23 - 9:06 p.m. | #

Also, travelling a tunnel in a motor vehicle disguises how steep the climb from the bottom can be. That, to my mind, precludes sharing a lane with buses.

Best example I have ridden is the dedicated cycle tunnel under the Oude Maas at Barendrecht near Rotterdam. You fly to the bottom and then crawl up the other side. It is an exceptional piece of infrastructure and what is needed in London's case.

Jim | 19.07.23 - 9:21 p.m. | #

Perhaps they should convert a handful of pods by removing all the seats and making them more bike friendly. Then they could have a separate queue for the free bike transporter service whilst not inconveniencing other punters.

JP | 20.07.23 - 8:24 a.m. | #

Dangleway solution is a great idea

Cyclist | 20.07.23 - 10:27 a.m. | #

The seats in the Dangleway do already flip up for bikes, the cabins can comfortably fit at least two as I've done this myself. Agree with the necessity to have a separate queue for cyclists if this were to happen. Although there are plenty of periods were the queue is non-existent, at the weekends the queues can be huge, there was an hour wait when I went with a friend last summer (we gave up after 10 mins!).

Easy solution to people cheating the system with Lime/etc hire bikes: ban them. Easy enough to pick up another one on the other side if they're a serious user.

Sean | 20.07.23 - 11:12 a.m. | #

Dangleway on weekdays, and at weekends use some of the buses which have just been taken off the 507/521 routes, which have plenty of space for bikes. I know they are destined for the 108, but maybe keep a few and run them as a separate shuttle between North Greenwich and Canning Town. Could also use these buses after an O2 event to relieve the normal 108 service through the tunnel.

Al Holmes | 20.07.23 - 2:51 p.m. | #

As a cyclist who frequently needs to cross the Thames, I find the biggest problem happens after approx. 11pm when lots of the available methods to cross the river close. Allowing bikes on some buses which run, e.g. through the Blackwall Tunnel all night, much like they do off-peak on certain tube lines, would be really helpful. The buses can be quiet at this time too, thus not even causing much disruption.

Anonymous | 20.07.23 - 4:30 p.m. | #

Sharing a lane with HGVs is uncomfortable, but that is no reason to prohibit cyclists. Let the cyclists decide whether they want to endure the experience, and stop with the "nanny state" rubbish. TfL avoid the need to spend money on some new initiative, and experienced urban cyclists can get from A to B without the hassle and delay of using a special service. HGVs should learn to share the road and obey speed limits. Simple.

anon | 20.07.23 - 11:50 p.m. | #

My initial thought when I saw the consultation was: is there any reason why the current northbound Blackwall tunnel (the Victorian one with restricted clearance) could not be allocated to cyclists, and the current southbound Blackwall Tunnel become two-way (1 lane in each direction)?

Paul B | 22.07.23 - 12:55 p.m. | #

The Ford Thames Trader? Based Buses (TT class) used on the Dartford Tunnel were replaced by a Land Rover hauling a trailer. This might be a better solution.

JBC Prestatyn | 27.07.23 - 10:02 p.m. | #











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