please empty your brain below
Out of interest, can you still make a phone call during a power cut?, is all the other infrastructure that would make the call viable still there?

Still Anon | 03.02.22 - 7:35 a.m. | #

If you have an old phone plugged into a spare socket, rather than relying totally on a modern cordless phone, hopefully yes.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 03.02.22 - 7:42 a.m. | #

Can you make a phone call over you now broadband line in a power cut? Generally, no, there is no fallback at the domestic end. Eventually there will be routers with battery backup for short outages but not yet or buy your own battery backup box.

Type of phone (wired or wireless, VoIP digital via Ethernet/WiFi or analog via router socket) doesn't matter, they won't work if no power available for the router.

Providers of safety pendants, alarm systems are generally migrating to mobile based tech (own number) with integral battery backup (always charged from mains).

For people with more complex internal phone wiring it will require a change to reroute the analog wiring into the router or an analog to VoIP adapter somewhere in the setup (or for each analog phone) Will need an private engineer to visit for most to make the change.

MilesT | 03.02.22 - 8:18 a.m. | #

Yes, with a copper connection everything is powered from the exchange end, down that copper wire. Unfortunately fibre is essentially glass, which is very good at carrying light but is a very effective electrical insulator.

Any relays in the circuit are powered from the exchange. And the exchanges have backup generators in case their own mains supply goes down. I used to work in a building shared with a telephone exchange, and we occasionally had fuel tanker deliveries for the generators (they were never used in anger in my time there, but were tested every week)

Timbo | 03.02.22 - 8:19 a.m. | #

Your old, square connection box is now dead. They won't tell you this, but it can safely be removed from your wall and the cable cut back at a convenient, tidy place.

We are due to have the wall plastered and I thought that it would be simpler and tidier if it wasn't there.

Nothing in BT's literature will refer to the redundant box. But, after a lengthy discussion on live chat, their advisor was able to confirm my feeling that I could continue without it.

Snip !

Petras409 | 03.02.22 - 8:36 a.m. | #

I'll eat a sock if they retire all the copper wiring by 2025.

I hate the all-in-one nature of the new connections. Currently I can use my own router and completely replace the BT one because the connection has its own FTTC modem. Those with newer connections would need to run two routers (BT and their own) if they want control over their own network. I suspect it will put a serious dent in the 3rd party router business. Though I'll be fair and admit that BT's newer routers are considerably less shit than the one gathering dust in my closet.

Chz | 03.02.22 - 8:45 a.m. | #

Ofcom says your phone 'should' work, with the caveat 'provided that nothing has happened to bring the phone network down'. Perhaps local power cut yes, widespread (e.g. significant weather event) power cut no. But shutting off the electricity grid to check isn't a test you could do.

Still Anon | 03.02.22 - 8:51 a.m. | #

Chz - The change isn't necessarily removal of copper line, just termination of analog service on the copper line, making it broadband only. Yes some will get a fibre swap at the same time; new lines are generally VoIP only in many exchanges (stop sell order on copper) Trial exchange for domestic switchover is Mildenhall.

People who just want voice service are likely to get capped broadband for same price (0.5MBS up and down, enough for single VoIP call)

MilesT | 03.02.22 - 8:51 a.m. | #

about 15 years ago the guy installing my broadband asked where i wanted the landline installed... he seemed a bit confused when i told him not to bother. I've never missed it. I suspect this move will push a lot of people to move in the same direction and just ditch the phone rather than have the hassle of moving it.

the only people who ring it are usually selling something.

Alistair Twiname | 03.02.22 - 9:16 a.m. | #

Am I missing something here? What happens to households who do not have broadband, mobile telephones, computers in their homes and rely on their landline? Are they to be cut off from the world?

dg writes: see 2025 link in post.

Jo W | 03.02.22 - 9:34 a.m. | #

Jo W - My understanding is that they will be given a very basic broadband connection with the internet part effectively disabled

Paul | 03.02.22 - 9:43 a.m. | #

Back in the 1980s I worked in the IT industry, forecasting markets and trends. Merging computers and communications was the hot topic, but I don't think we expected it to take 40 years!

Keith | 03.02.22 - 9:48 a.m. | #

Seems like a bit of a rip off to charge you fees for the phone anymore when they've changed it to a VOIP connection. Doubt that will stop them though

Ian | 03.02.22 - 10:02 a.m. | #

Re : Armageddon

I have a small 10000mAh power bank which I bought for about a tenner. It stores enough power to recharge a smartphone two or three times and holds its charge for months. Maybe something to invest in as a back-up when they disconnect the land line. Although of course if the cell network goes down too, you're on your own!

CJS | 03.02.22 - 10:05 a.m. | #

I can't imagine this being competed by 2025, there has been very little publicity and all sorts of issues are bound to come up. And when you say 'plug your phone into my Smart Hub' note that for BT at least it must be THEIR Smart Hub and the later version with software designed such as any third party router will not do, monopoly by stealth.

davews | 03.02.22 - 10:25 a.m. | #

I was aware of this but there's been very little publicity, not least that each existing plug-in extension phone will in future need its own adapter (there don't seem to be many phones that will connect via wifi). I much prefer having several phones in various convenient places around the house rather than carrying one around with me. One drawback is that the new box to plug in the landline needs to have a mains power supply nearby which limts where you can have the phone.

Andrew S | 03.02.22 - 10:48 a.m. | #

Analogue radio won't fully go as it is to useful to the military and prison service

Simon G | 03.02.22 - 10:51 a.m. | #

Will the BT box be able to ring several phones? I have eight; I'm a deaf old git.

mikeS | 03.02.22 - 10:55 a.m. | #

Hmm, I'm not convinced about this "all eggs in one basket" approach to things!

Especially as technology and I are uncomfortable bedfellows at the best of times!

Cornish Cockney | 03.02.22 - 11:53 a.m. | #

We dropped our landline 5 years ago when the handset broke and we realised we never used it. Final calls we kept it for were internationals on a cheaper deal with our provider, but now those are effectively free over WhatsApp.

TomH | 03.02.22 - 11:55 a.m. | #

Soo..... is BT going to give everyone a free Smarthub?

Are they going to give their existing broadband customers who might still have an older router a free smart hub?

dg writes: to the latter, yes.

Agent X | 03.02.22 - 12:34 p.m. | #

This is very alarming news! It's perfectly obvious that an emergency situation will coincide with a break in the power supply. A year ago a landline fault coincided for me with sustaining a broken ankle. Had my mobile been low on power, things would have got sticky, as I had to hang on a long time before getting through to 111, then had to ring for a taxi. And when a power outage is in the picture, one imagines the occurence of falls in the home is higher.

cau1khead | 03.02.22 - 12:35 p.m. | #

I have a landline number and my name has been printed in the local phone book (yes, it exists), but I don't have a phone plugged in. However, aerial is not obsolete, as Freeview is an excellent way to watch TV, and it's in HD, so I wouldn't write it off just yet.

Greg S | 03.02.22 - 1:04 p.m. | #

Thank you for referring me to the 2025 site.
Unfortunately, I am not fluent in gobbledegook.
I hope that when the time comes, there will be an explanatory leaflet of some kind, printed in plain English, without use of techie initials.

Greg S same here but we do have a telephone plugged in and an aerial to watch television.

Jo W | 03.02.22 - 1:12 p.m. | #

Are my current phone handsets likely to be rendered redundant as they have no external power source?

Paul | 03.02.22 - 2:21 p.m. | #

One way of looking at this is currently there's a box in the exchange (ok, many boxes) that converts your voice calls to digital data to go wherever it's going. All that's happening is they're moving that box into your house so that their network is entirely digital.

Paul: The power for any handsets will come from the phone socket on the broadband router, the same way it comes from the phone socket on your wall now.

Graham | 03.02.22 - 2:47 p.m. | #

Many people are discussing hypothetical power cuts, but this already happened last year with Storm Arwen (and the back up battery is only designed to run for a couple of hours, not days).

Philip | 03.02.22 - 2:53 p.m. | #

The point about not having internet based phone service during power outages is absolutely valid. It happens all the time in the US, as it does whenever internet services go down (a regular occurrence in my area). Mobile phones aren't always the answer, either. A recent snow storm that caused widespread power outages here showed just how fragile the mobile system can be in an emergency. I have power banks to keep our mobiles charged during power outages, but the mobile phone network was clearly overloaded. Calls would not go through, no web pages/services be accessed via the mobile and only randomly could I send/receive text messages. Not comforting in an emergency. Fortunately, I didn't have one...this time.

Mary | 03.02.22 - 3:00 p.m. | #

This will undoubtedly cost lives: seconds count when you have a stroke or heart attack. I'm certainly not out in the sticks but I have reliable mobile coverage from only one network. The moment my power fails, the local tower goes off the air, so there's absolutely no way to call 999.

Amazingly, BT is not providing battery backup by default, and even if it does it only lasts for a ridiculously short time.

Time for an urgent rethink.

Gerry | 03.02.22 - 3:35 p.m. | #

The power for the phones does not come from the router, as BT points out. It has to have a mains power socket for its digital voice equipment which works over wifi.
The only solution to the power outage problem is put solar panels on your roof and charge a battery with it, then you will have a reliable mains supply.

stephen adams | 03.02.22 - 3:42 p.m. | #

"Your old, square connection box is now dead."
No it isn't, it is the last point BT go to as it is the end of the network connection and belongs to them!
If you remove it they can fine you for stealing their equipment and damaging the line.

stephen adams | 03.02.22 - 3:45 p.m. | #

I think this is extremely alarming. The existing landline system is resilient if there are power cuts; Storm Arwen is an obvious example of the dangers of loss of electricity for a sustained period. BT’s bland assurance that one can always use a mobile as back-up makes the assumption that everyone actually has a mobile; and the London bombings demonstrated only too clearly that if vast numbers try to use mobiles simultaneously the networks can’t cope and fall over.

Experience of VoIP while working from home during the pandemic shows that call quality is worse, digital delay annoying and the cut-out when two people try to talk at once stymies the natural flow of conversation. As with so many supposed technical solutions, “new” means “cheaper for the supplier” but worse and more inconvenient for the user.

Will government departments, police, emergency services, etc, have to make this switch as well, or will the tried-and-tested secure landline system be retained? I can’t see emergency response to a severe incident being much cop if stakeholders can’t talk to each other because their routers have no power. And in a national emergency, such as a cyber-attack that takes the internet down, Whitehall may still have to talk to the regions and other UK nations. What then? Megaphones? Runners with cleft sticks?

Labourer | 03.02.22 - 5:01 p.m. | #

My mother’s landline phones all stopped working one day. After extensively pestering fault support we found out that the line had been changed to digital and the phones no longer worked. Eventually she was sent some digital cordless phones.

Sprout Eater | 03.02.22 - 6:31 p.m. | #

Labourer asks whether government departments and emergency services will make this switch. The answer is that in most cases they made it years ago - business telephony has largely run over internet connections (VOIP) rather than switched copper for a very long time, in a transition which started twenty years ago or more.

That doesn't mean that the transition for domestic lines will be painless, but it does mean that the underlying approach is robust and mature technology.

Marek | 03.02.22 - 8:42 p.m. | #

During power cuts our old ‘copper line’ phone usually rings and an automated voice call informs us of the power failure and its likely duration. A reassuring service.

Bring on the solar roof tiles then.

Herbof | 03.02.22 - 10:20 p.m. | #

We're still merrily using ISDN at work - its days are similarly numbered though.

martin | 03.02.22 - 10:34 p.m. | #

“The Future Of Voice website…is designed for industry and other stakeholders to provide information on the migration of fixed voice services to IP between now and 2025.”
futureofvoice.co.uk

Surprisingly hard to find, for an industry-wide public information website. It includes a page for home phone users, setting out the points outlined in the post and above.

Rich G | Homepage | 04.02.22 - 12:49 a.m. | #

This unnecessary tying of the phone to the BT home hub is why I no longer have a landline. I refuse to install the Home Hub. Nowhere in the literature you get before the stuff is delivered does it tell you that.

Southern Heights (Light Railway) | 04.02.22 - 7:52 a.m. | #

Thanks Rich!

From the Future of Voice FAQ...

Do I need a new phone/handset?
You may need to change your phone if it is a very old one and not compatible with the new system, for example, if it has an older style plug where it connects to the wall.

What if my landline and broadband are with different providers?
You will have a choice. You will also have a choice to switch to another completely different provider.

Will my phone connection be over fibre?
Not necessarily. Your broadband may still be over a copper wire but your phone will use IP technology to make and receive phone calls over your broadband connection.

Will a power cut affect my service?
Let your home phone provider know if you are about to move to the new service and you have no alternative method of calling the emergency services. For example:
• If you live somewhere where there is no mobile coverage;
• you don’t have a mobile phone

In these cases, your provider should offer you a solution to allow you to call the emergency services, at the very least, during a power cut.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 04.02.22 - 8:07 a.m. | #

I have woken up this morning to find that my router is broken and my WiFi isn’t working. Thank heavens for 4G.

I for one welcome this new future which is clearly more reliable than the old technology ….

Geofftech | 04.02.22 - 9:50 a.m. | #

Ofcom specified that customers without mobile access or other special requirements be given resilient connections that can withstand a power cut but BT protested strongly that it didn’t wanna. Their response is worth a read.

Mike Arton | 04.02.22 - 10:34 a.m. | #

Well, thank you, I'd not heard about the change to stamps.
I was well-informed about the change to telephone services (unlike many of other contributors).

Martin'O'Holcombe | 04.02.22 - 10:42 a.m. | #

Astounding and dangerous ignorance from the Broadband Stakeholder Group's 'Future of Voice' website. Their FAQs claim that "If you have a mobile phone this can be used in the event of a power cut.".

That's simply not true if you rely on a mobile base station that has no battery backup and is knocked out by the same power cut.

Gerry | 04.02.22 - 1:23 p.m. | #

There's something comforting about an old fashioned landline. Somehow it feels solid and reliable with better audio quality.

When I moved last year Virgin gave me a new digital phone instead of reconnecting the landline in the house. I was somewhat disappointed even though I hardly use it!

Top tip if you have a vintage handset, as I do: If it doesn't ring properly when plugged into the router, you can put an old ADSL filter in the chain (ie between the phone and the adapter they give you to plug the phone into the router). These have the electronics required (a capacitor) to get the real vintage phones to ring. Mine has a splendid bell.

Paul | 04.02.22 - 2:52 p.m. | #

Solar panels installations generally don't offer a backup mains supply in case of power cut unless there is extra control gear to specifically allow this. This is to stop the "local" generation energising the main, potentially shocking repair crews.

And don't even consider connecting a portable petrol generator to the house mains for the same reason!

A standard small UPS designed for a PC would easily and simply provide power backup for a internet router to maintain a phone service.

MilesT | 04.02.22 - 4:34 p.m. | #

BT’s response (linked above) is yet another example of an organisation abdicating its responsibility and transferring it to customers instead: they’re effectively saying they see no reason to guarantee they’ll provide a resilient phone service that works in a power cut and it’s the customer’s fault if they then haven’t got a mobile (or it’s not charged). The banks have been pulling this one for years, trying to make customers responsible for security so that they will be blamed for not being careful if there’s a fraud a bank misses, so it’s no surprise to find BT wriggling out of their existing legal obligation to keep phones working at all times.

Labourer | 05.02.22 - 12:43 a.m. | #

Today's mailshot from BT promises...

• If I have a corded phone but don't want to use it near my Smart Hub, they'll send me a free cordless handset.

• If I have a second corded phone in another location I need to order a free adaptor.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 05.02.22 - 1:03 p.m. | #











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