please empty your brain below
Its a bit like a game of Battleships, all I tell you is that you've missed, you could have missed by a mile or a millimeter, but I don't need to tell you that, I just provide the information that you specifically requested.

The motto is

NEVER EVER VOLUNTEER INFORMATION

| 18.11.15 - 7:15 a.m. | #

Does anyone keep statistics on how long it takes TfL to reply substantively? Is it always (or nearly always) 20 working days?

Why does it take 20 days to reply "buses can terminate at any bus stop on the network"? From their behaviour, it seems as if these people are employed to be as slow, obstructive and unhelpful as possible.

Andrew | 18.11.15 - 7:42 a.m. | #

Surely the knack is to ask for some specific information eg in this case about the cycle super highway in Bow and its impact on bus stops and then, having received what TFL offer up, read it and see if more documents, not supplied, are referred to, and then request again. What I am unclear about, and perhaps someone else does know about, is what are the rules applicable by an organisation to aggregate separate queries together and claim they exceed the limit.

Crafty sod | 18.11.15 - 8:11 a.m. | #

@ Andrew - IME simple queries are usually fulfilled in the timescale but rarely earlier than the 20 working days. One request I made took months of battling to get one document out of TfL that should have been published anyway (IMO, of course).

The thing requestors cannot see is the total volume that TfL have to handle. A lot of the requests seem to be for things that are either readily accessible or just seem to be crazed requests from enthusiasts. Obviously there are also some very targeted, contentious requests about things that TfL possibly don't want in the public domain. They often take a long time to deal with or the responses are "evasive".

Mr Reed should have asked for the 188's "Route Record" with the official turning / curtailment points. It is actually incorrect to say that buses can terminate at any stop. They only do that if they break down or there is an emergency of some sort. Otherwise they can only be turned by controllers at officially defined curtailment points.

PC | 18.11.15 - 9:42 a.m. | #

My FOI request/question to TfL is already "in the system". It to the point and should not require too many hours to produce a answer. I'll let you all know how I got on! ;)

Grumpy Anon | 18.11.15 - 11:51 a.m. | #

Unless the complainant replies to clarify their woolly-framed query, we may never discover what's been being said about my three local bus stops, dammit.

Have you considered submitting your own request to find out the answer? I suspect whoever sent in that request did so after reading your blog post.

I am pleasantly susprised to see the comment that they expect it relates to cycle superhighway and how to make the request more specific to bring it under the limit.

In my experience most organisations try to avoid FOI requests and hence wouldn't want to drop clues as to how the person can find out what they want by submitting a new request!

Jon Combe | 18.11.15 - 12:38 p.m. | #

I suspect the blogowner's interest could be satisfied by asking how many TfL documents mention 'diamond geezer'.

David | 18.11.15 - 3:26 p.m. | #

Busses may terminate where they want to. Once, I was on a bus that was not able to make it out in the traffic jam from the bus stop, and then, it just went "This bus terminates here" although the stop were in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a Boots nearby.

Diamond Geezer cannot file a request and after that show it to his reader as that would ruin his anonymity. According to WhatDoTheyKnow's Question & Answer page, TfL do not have to answer requests signed with a pseudonym. The page also mention that it is "good practice" to do so anyway, but we've seen TfL reject someone's request because he/she failed to include his/her last name, so what are chances they would accept "diamond geezer".

The Question & Answer page even includes a list of alternatives, and one of these is to ask someone else to file the request which, in fact, is what DG already does by complaining about stuff that his readers afterwards file requests about.

Thomas from Denmark | 18.11.15 - 4:10 p.m. | #

^ Just use my name...works for me!

John Smith | 18.11.15 - 8:05 p.m. | #

FOI was surely meant to stop public bodies hiding things (hospital deaths, extravagant expenditure etc), and was never intended to satisfy the frequent "crazed requests from enthusiasts", which just give ammunition to those who wish to tighten up the legislation as dealing with each request obviously has a cost. A lot of the information could be obtained informally and in a more satisfying way by - taking a few recent examples - travelling on the relevant mode of transport and recording the announcements, picking up a leaflet, searching on the internet or actually paying for a book or poster about the relevant subject. TfL is I admit shooting itself in the foot by no longer publishing some things itself (anyone know where I can get a Met main line leaf-fall timetable from?). Alternatively a polite request through the normal customer service channels would often work.

I do also wish those who publicly make FOI requests (eg through What Do They Know) would explain why they are asking, so we could all benefit from the information. The bus terminating point query is a good example.

Andrew S | 18.11.15 - 8:09 p.m. | #

The FoI law is a good one, for the reasons quoted above (e.g. avoiding attempts to cover up important but embarrassing facts). Some "abuse" of the system (or what many observers would perceive as abuse) is inevitable. But I think it is up to us, the general public, to keep this abuse to a minimum. That way any calls for the law to be "cut back" to avoid "red tape" can best be resisted.

In this case, the motto should be, not "use it or lose it" but "use it sensibly or lose it".

Malcolm | 18.11.15 - 8:22 p.m. | #

I confess. I put in the FOI request on the Bow Road bus stops. I'm a regular reader of the blog. During the time of the regular Bow Road blog posts, it did seem as though TfL were being spurred into action by DG, so I thought I would look to see what was going on behind the scene. I'm particularly interested in whether any lessons were learnt for future bus stop moves. My intention was to put in the request, get the information, then send a link to DG as a sort-of present. I should have realised that DG would be a follower of TfL on WhatDoTheyKnow!
Happy to receive any suggested wording for my revised request.

Friar Sven | 18.11.15 - 9:45 p.m. | #

Is this true? Is there really one of these?

http://www.cityam.com/224381/transport-london-secretly-make-geographically-accurate-tube-map-and-its-strangely-hypnotising

I want one! I got this map from a vending machine in a tube station in 2006 and it covers the main touristy areas in 'real space' and it is the best map I have. I'd love a big, proper geographically accurate one!

If it is secret, as the article suggests, would it be possible to FOI it? ???

... oh wait ... never mind! Got it!

Antipodean | 19.11.15 - 12:10 a.m. | #

Skip the request for emails - that's the expensive bit. Once you get the minutes/agendas you could refine your FoI about specific details.

Alternatively, get in contact with you Assembly Member and get it put in as a Mayors Question though you obviously need to make it a fairly precise question.

Good luck

Flare | 19.11.15 - 12:50 a.m. | #

People moan about the price of travel in London. They moan about how much tax they pay and how high the rates have got. They moan about the cuts to public services. And maybe rightly too.

And then you find that people are submitting bollocks like this to TfL via FOI sites, at a cost of up to £449.99 on each occasion.
And you do have to wonder... are these the same folk who are angered when their bus tickets get more expensive, yet the service is getting worse?

Why do we think that is, then?

Dave from Peckham | 19.11.15 - 7:11 a.m. | #

@ Andrew S - TfL publish all Underground working timetables. I checked the list the other day and the met line leaf fall timetables are available.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/working-timetables

It is worth noting that TfL have recently updated their access to information to include detailed bus schedules (bus working timetables). The interface in the Publications and Reports part of the website doesn't seem to be quite working properly - a fair number of timetables do pop up but some do not . However if you take a URL for a route that does display a list of schedules and change the route number then that does pull up the relevant schedule. No idea why it's not working properly but hopefully TfL will get it sorted out.

https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-reports/bus-schedules

PC | 19.11.15 - 4:24 p.m. | #

Game on... https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/correspondence_relating_to_bus_s

diamond geezer | Homepage | 01.12.15 - 7:57 p.m. | #

The question "If possible could I have a list of all stops where buses can terminate. For example I know the bus route 188 terminates at Russell Square and North Greenwich, but the 188 can also terminate at Canada Water and Waterloo" would have been better worded simply as "Can you please supply an electronic list or spreadsheet of every authorised curtailment point for each bus route?"

Mike Harris | Homepage | 14.02.16 - 11:09 p.m. | #











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