please empty your brain below
At peak times can people even see the platform surface beneath their feet?

popartist | 26.07.17 - 7:14 a.m. | #

This just makes me think for some reason of my primary school in the 1980s when they put a "Fire Door Keep Closed" sticker on a door. So loads of children thought the door had to be kept closed all the time and went on detours.

Unexpected consequences of people misunderstanding something you think is simple and clear

Andrew Bowden | Homepage | 26.07.17 - 7:30 a.m. | #

Why not just draw door markings and arrows on the platform, like **almost every other metro system in the world**??

John | 26.07.17 - 7:42 a.m. | #

Another in a long line of trials that simply prove that the platforms aren't wide enough.

100andthirty | 26.07.17 - 7:43 a.m. | #

I have seen yellow "box junction" markings on platforms (meaning, just as on the roads, "do not stop in this box") on some Tube platforms. People seem to understand those (and the selfish ones who decide to take advantage of that being where the doors will be, soon learn that it doesn't work as they have to stand back when the doors open to let people off, giving the advantage to the people standing either side of the box.)

Why switch from the familiar yellow box do the counterintuitive green?

Just as daft as organisations such as Richmond Park or Welcome Break thinking they can improve on the internationally recognised and TSRGD -sanctioned road signs, which just leads to confusion

timbo | 26.07.17 - 7:49 a.m. | #

I used to think this was somethingi we could helpfully learn from the Japanese, who really have platform edge queueing down to a fine art, but I think I'm changing my mind. It certainly worked on the Shinkansen when I was there earlier in the year, but I think Japanese people quite like the useful lines painted on the floor, and actively seek out the little icons indicating where the door will stop, whereas the average Londoner will do anything in their power to avoid such official Medling in their life.

Robert | Homepage | 26.07.17 - 7:52 a.m. | #

Would it be better if the area had a different colour - red, or yellow, or shaded, or something else? - and perhaps some words or symbols too - wait here / walk here or arrows or something else?

It would be interesting to hear a report of how this is working in the rush hour. The platforms are so crowded: is the green even visible?

Andrew | 26.07.17 - 7:52 a.m. | #

Yes, timbo nails it. Box with diagonal yellow markings.

The Japanese symbols for waiting areas are great, but I'm not sure they would work well here.

Andrew | 26.07.17 - 7:55 a.m. | #

A better system would work like many of the underground lifts - enter on one side and exit from the other, with entry doors not opening until the people leaving have alighted. But this would require complete station rebuilding and a greater numbers of staff, so is a complete non-starter in real-world terms. Shame no-one thought about it in the 19th century...

Waterhouse | 26.07.17 - 8:03 a.m. | #

The initiative to improve passenger flow is welcome, but I'd love to hear the rationale that led to use of solid green (that to me shouts 'allowed here') rather than cross-hatching in yellow or red that universally indicates prohibition.

Frank F | 26.07.17 - 8:08 a.m. | #

Fortunately I don't often have to travel during peak hours but when I do I have to say commuters generally know the "protocols" about letting people off first, standing on the right of escalators etc, without having to be told where to walk and stand. From my experience it's more the weekend crowds who behave in a more haphazard way, obstructing passageways / entrances.

I like the way at some stations on the Jubilee line, passengers have started to form queues by the doors. To be fair on those new stations with platform doors it is obvious where to stand! I haven't seen anyone jumping those unofficial queues and wonder what the reaction would be; probably exactly as your last "tweet," just a quiet "tut!"

Tim | 26.07.17 - 8:17 a.m. | #

Diagonal yellow markings would be much better. I, like millions of others in this country are 'colour blind'. It took me a while to fathom out what DG was on about as I could see no Green bits in the photos.

Richard | 26.07.17 - 8:19 a.m. | #

But then Londoners don't pay attention to traffic lights either, so what else is new?

Greg | 26.07.17 - 8:25 a.m. | #

What this suggests to me is that TfL are rather worried about developing congestion on the tube before the introduction of Crossrail 1&2, and they are anticipating desperate situations that require, frankly, desperate solutions.

Two things: we need a regional policy to disperse our economy across the country even when it's stalling, rather than letting money do its worse, and what chaos unfettered capital accumulation brings.

Brian | 26.07.17 - 8:25 a.m. | #

And, it's not a particularly nice shade of green, is it. This reminds me of the cycling equivalent, an especially repugnant blue. Come on design team, Pantone is your friend.

Anyhow, I'm with timbo and make it lemon zest (13-0756) cross hatching. Line thickness must be proportionate to the residual space though...

Ken | 26.07.17 - 8:27 a.m. | #

Perversity rules OK.

"Dogs must be carried on the escalator". I don't have a dog, so I suppose I'll have to use the stairs.

Petras409 | 26.07.17 - 8:41 a.m. | #

There is yellow cross hatching on the Northern Line platforms that seems to work wonders. No explanatory posters needed.

(I also get your point about commuters vs. tourists. The orderly queueing at each door in Canary Wharf station is a sight to behold if you've never seen it at peak times.)

Matthew | 26.07.17 - 8:43 a.m. | #

Computer generated image on a poster - bright green floor covering.

Real life - dirty green on a grey background.

BTW - the image on the poster implies that the exit/entrance to the platform is a standing area.

The thing about the Japanese, is that they are generally all Japanese, as opposed to the international potpourri of London, so what makes sense to everyone is all a bit mysterious.

Still anon | 26.07.17 - 8:50 a.m. | #

Looks like TfL have engaged an expensive "Behavioural Insights" consultant to tap into the cutting edge thinking of behavioural economics.

new anon | 26.07.17 - 8:51 a.m. | #

I can't see the point if it supposed to be of benefit for people getting off the train. It's not as if the doors open and you're going to stand there for a minute looking for the green path... doors open and you get off the train. And it would be pretty invisible anyway during the rush-hour. If anything is really needed it should be aimed at people on the platform and either cross-hatching or symbols seem to be best solution to me.

Philip | 26.07.17 - 9:17 a.m. | #

Three things immediately spring to mind:

1: As so many have already said, what's wrong with a yellow stripey box like they use elsewhere?

2: At Victoria tube station, northbound at 8:45, people are actually fairly good at not obstructing the doors. Right up until the point where the platform is too crowded to not stand in front of them. Which is quite a lot of the time.

3: At Victoria rail station, they have a yellow stripey box with "Don't Stand Here" (or words to that effect), and everyone stands in it.

Chz | 26.07.17 - 9:25 a.m. | #

Like DG ignores those with dyslexicia on this website with his coloured text, TFL have not thought about colour blind users at platforms. Green is a terrible colour to pick.

Mark | 26.07.17 - 9:46 a.m. | #

Poor design. People waiting for a train have to cross path of those alighting. Longitudinal green should be adjacent to the platform wall to minimise conflict of flow.

scrumpy | 26.07.17 - 9:55 a.m. | #

To me, it would make better intuitive sense to have the areas not coloured green to be green, with the trial green areas left blank.
Try that combination TFL at another station.

doug robinson | 26.07.17 - 10:11 a.m. | #

Green isn't a problem for colour blind people as long as you can see a contrast between it and the platform below. Little flecks of red and green on status screens are.

I actually made this point recently to TfL, that they're actually quite good for colourblind people - I don't have a problem with it at all.

Kirk | 26.07.17 - 10:15 a.m. | #

Completely agree with John at the top - my local example, Taipei, seems to do fine. One arrow lines up with the middle of the door, pointing out (to let disembarking passengers out); two arrows on either side, pointing in, with 'queue here' markings on the floor (approximately where the clear area is in this London scheme). Works well enough.

Kevin | 26.07.17 - 11:01 a.m. | #

I hope TfL will be trialling a number of different systems on different platforms, to see what (if anything) works best in practice. Do people need a nudge, like the line down the middle of the road, or will we end up self-organising anyway?

Andrew | 26.07.17 - 11:05 a.m. | #

"it made me tut and sigh quietly to myself" as well.

Train door scrmmages are still 100 times better than bus door scrimmages!

Cornish Cockney | 26.07.17 - 11:33 a.m. | #

At Waterloo station on the Waterloo & City line, tiles were installed on the platform edges during the Network South East era to indicated the door positions. They're still there, though I don't believe they align with the doors of the current stock.

I recall in the early 1990s that orderly queues would form diagonally across the platform at each door position. It's a slightly special (unique?) case though in that the trains always enter the platform empty.

Nightmale | 26.07.17 - 12:12 p.m. | #

I presume obeying the green lines is voluntary?

Whereas standing on the yellow line is definitely crossing a red line?

Ian Brooker | 26.07.17 - 12:44 p.m. | #

I'm not sure cross-hatching is the magic bullet - they have it at Shepherd's Bush and it's routinely ignored so that the queue to get onto the platform backs up the stairs because people won't move down the damn platform.

Would also echo @popartist's comment that at peak times you're unlikely to have enough non-green area for everyone to wait in.

My suggestion would be to have a pattern of arrows/chevrons pointing in the direction of the exit, so that a) it's pretty obvious that it's not a place to stand, and b) people getting off the train have an easy route to follow to leave the platform quickly.

Moogal | 26.07.17 - 12:50 p.m. | #

At the airport in Chicago they have large stickers with arrows to help guide the herd. That doesn't work very well either, but it's better than nebulous green.
[photo]

Simon | Homepage | 26.07.17 - 1:39 p.m. | #

Should try Singapore, simple arrows.

| 26.07.17 - 2:41 p.m. | #

Perhaps TFL's new motto should be "Great idea, shame about the poor execution"

whiff | 26.07.17 - 2:43 p.m. | #

What pop artist said. Only of use at the peak times, and you'd need to be looking directly down to see the markings instead of looking where you're going. Conflicting flows of people and about 12" between each other means you have milliseconds only to adjust your body posture to avoid shoulder barging.

Uncle Audrey | 26.07.17 - 3:13 p.m. | #

The platform is simply too narrow and too busy in peak times for this to work well.

Queuing in an orderly fashion works well when everybody can feel that the system is clear, beneficial and fair.

Unfortunately, due to the narrowness / crowded nature of the platform, those following the rules may end up being disadvantaged when the train comes. Those waiting between two sets of doors might not be able to board during busy times.

As people have noted, queueing works well at the Jubilee line stations with wide platforms. People waiting in line can clearly see that they will get their turn.

As people have also noted, queuing works well in Japan. I think this as much to do with the expansive platforms as it is to do with culture. In Japanese stations with narrow sections of platform, the 'queue' turns into a scrum after the first and second in line have boarded.

Steve | 26.07.17 - 3:39 p.m. | #

At Victoria mainline station in the congested area just next to the ticket barriers, there is a large lane of cross hatchings with large "Keep Clear" signs on the floor.

It has absolutely no effect. In fact, so many people stand there that the cross hatchings are wearing away.

drfoop | 26.07.17 - 3:42 p.m. | #

@nightmale

Before the NSE "racing slug" tiles marking the door positions at Waterloo and Bank (which are still there, faithfully marking where the doors of the 1940 stock, withdrawn 23 years ago, used to line up) there were simple paint marks on the platform edge. And yes, city gents (and the few ladies using the line back then) did queue up dutifully behind those lines.

timbo | 26.07.17 - 5:11 p.m. | #

My first thought - Why is there a bike lane in the subway?

In California, they've taken to painting bike lanes green. Looks like they're blue some places in London.

Miles Archer | 26.07.17 - 7:54 p.m. | #

I agree with the majority that the green lanes ought to be yellow hatching.

But a further question is who ever chose the distance of the green lane from the back wall? I haven't been to the station, obviously, but the space behind it looks completely wasted, as there's no room to stand in it, and why would you anyway? The "keep clear" lane ought to extend all the way to the wall.

Perhaps they've got these details wrong on purpose, either to be able to demonstrate "responsiveness", or because they want the trial to fail.

Malcolm | 26.07.17 - 9:07 p.m. | #

they did something similar for the ferries in Amsterdam but with a far more logical colour scheme: green = here you can stay and wait, red = here is where the people coming off the ferry will be. Seems to work quite well last time I was there.

jg | Homepage | 26.07.17 - 9:09 p.m. | #

I can't stand the Jubilee line queues. They'd not be so bad if they went along the platform parallel to the train, but at right angles to the platform edge they make it very difficult to walk along the platform when you get off the train. They strike me as rather OCD. I find the informal bunching either side of the doors on other lines works pretty well most of the time.

Andrew S | 26.07.17 - 9:39 p.m. | #

It doesn't work, no matter what colour it is (although it obviously should have been RED for "Don't stand here") because at the height of the peak when the platform is rammed, people are just going to cram in where they can eager to catch the next train, no matter what colour you paint on the platform.

People already often ignore the yellow cross hatchings on the Northern Line at Bank, even when told by staff not to stand there.

Can't change the habit of a lifetime with some paint on the floor ...

Geofftech | 26.07.17 - 9:59 p.m. | #

While I agree with the majority view that most regulars at peak times know the score already - putting some vinyl down makes little difference, and that the rest of the time the average punter won't take a blind bit of notice; it seems to me that something which suggests movement (to the target audience who are the stationary people waiting on the platform, rather than those alighting) would likely have the greatest effect.

Probably naive of me, but I'd try yellow chevrons (only) away from the doors and along the platform to the nearest (peak-time) Way Out.

Michael T | 27.07.17 - 9:54 a.m. | #

Just as the green is a way out, it is also a way in.

Daft, a waste of money and doomed to failure.

Chris | 27.07.17 - 11:38 a.m. | #

Interesting that an alleged benefit is to "run more trains". Is that even possible on the Vic Line? It's up to 36 tph in the peaks with no plans for further enhancement so the poster is telling porkies.

I suspect TfL are doing this because the improved and faster Vic Line is proving vastly more popular than even TfL's worst forecasts predicted. They're lumbered with vast numbers of people much earlier than they expected - partly because the Picc Line is in such a state.

For all those recommending hatched yellow boxes then the problem with that is keeping it clean and stopping the hatched lines wearing too quickly. Block colour is likely to be more effective for longer even if it wears a little bit. Forever coming back to repaint yellow lines is a costly exercise. I know this from all the "fault" calls we had with demands for refreshed platform edge lining, stair riser edging and escalator steps. Even planned cyclical maintenance did not stop fault calls. I can see precisely the same issues and maintenance cost impacts from this sort of set up - especially if it is categorised as a "safety" issue.

The basic point was made by 100&30 above. The platforms are wholly inadequate on much of the Victoria Line in the peaks. The sheer volumes being handled require some very expensive investment in stations to widen platforms. This trial is just an attempt to postpone the inevitable for a few more years.

PC | 27.07.17 - 12:37 p.m. | #

The green is just an odd choice. Yellow hatching is much more widely understood. And if it needs repainting more often? Well its cheaper than widening the platform!

Stephen C | Homepage | 28.07.17 - 12:41 p.m. | #

Some similar ideas were trialled on the Jubilee line back in 2008. They weren't much success then either.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/arrows-point-the-way-to-easing-tube-scrums-6647392.html

Paul | Homepage | 28.07.17 - 8:14 p.m. | #

As I understand it the "stand on both sides" escalator trial at Holborn mainly stopped because of escalator repair works. And yet you could stop hear staff encouraging passengers to stand on both sides after it had ended — as they clearly had observed that it did work.

Whether it'll be reinstated when the repair work is over, who knows? (The proposed new entrance for Holborn might negate the need for it, but that is years away)

Frankie Roberto | 28.07.17 - 8:42 p.m. | #

Here in sunny Japan, where they know a thing or two about high-density commuting and platform management, most platforms have unambiguous markings indicating where the train doors will be (right down to "door x of carriage y") and where the best place to stand is. In extreme cases there are two sets of lines, one for people queuing for the next train, and the other for people waiting for the train after that.

To add to the fun, on some lines there's a mix of train lengths and door numbers per car, varying between 2 and 4, and in some places (thinking of Keikyu Shinagawa here, whose platforms resemble the Nazca lines in technicolor) you'll even see differing stop positions for different destinations (in the case of Keikyu Shinagawa, airport trains have their own queuing lines and door positions).

(Oh yes and all ticket machines work at all times [*] with all advertised denominations of notes, so F-you London Transport and your "this station is not staffed at weekends and you want to buy a ticket? Hahaha". [*] Except once where the machine went all buzzy on me and it took a whole 2 minutes for the staff to sort it out).

railsquid | 30.07.17 - 1:47 p.m. | #

Wasn't it proved that by subtle use of coloured floor you can control where people go - in airports and department stores, etc?
I think that's why people tend follow the green painted floor than keep clear of it - I think I would if I couldn't see any instructions to tell me otherwise. (although I predominately look for the scuffed clean platform edge to tell me where a door will be when the next trains tops)

Dave Kirwin | 31.07.17 - 2:16 p.m. | #

When the tube is busy & the lemmings block the platform I just stand in the doorway. If they dont move I then say "If you dont move aside I cant get off which means you cant get on so kindly get out of the way" Seems to work wonders!

Andrew Jarman | 18.08.17 - 8:00 a.m. | #











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