please empty your brain below
Meanwhile celebrations in a couple of weeks as the Underground map is updated (with Thameslink included) reprinted and distributed. Tough luck if you’re a bus passenger trying to find out where bus routes go. What a way to run a Capital city’s bus system.

Roger French | Homepage | 19.11.20 - 7:10 a.m. | #

On Tuesday I was in Wallington and just missed a train (15 min wait) so rushed to the nearby bus stop to see routes to Sutton where I was going to break my journey. I was surprised to find that there isn't a direct one but at least the spider map made this clear.

Also, a route consultation has just started in and around Sutton (pending the proposed construction of a major new hospital, at least four years away), so goodbye spider maps here?!

Ken | 19.11.20 - 7:20 a.m. | #

As a transport planner (working in consultancy, a Borough and TfL) the spider maps were invaluable. Such a shame to them go.

David | 19.11.20 - 7:42 a.m. | #

Thankfully there are still some unofficial maps. Still no excuse for this though.

anon | 19.11.20 - 8:02 a.m. | #

A crying shame. There is a perfectly reasonable need for them: when we’re in a new (to us) part of London, we used to use the spider maps to work out what options we have for going home. We don’t have a destination, as such - we’re interested in the possible routes available to us to intermediate change points. The wealth of options should be one of the great goodies of London’s transport system - but instead they are hiding it from us.

Liz | 19.11.20 - 8:13 a.m. | #

I was never that keen on the spider maps because I couldn't get an overview, potentially leaving me unaware that if I got the first bus that turned up then there were further options to complete my journey a few stops down the road

Pre-spider TfL information at bus stops was an enlarged localised section of the London wide bus map with a 'You are here' sticker applied.

Perhaps the lesson is not to rely on one authority for your information, obviously Mike Harris does the maps, LVF does next bus info (yes TfL does as well, but its site is slower), and if you dig around the TfL site you can find a proper timetable, or check Robert Munster's site, rather than depend on the near useless TfL summaries with generic journey times that are now posted at stops.

Still Anon | 19.11.20 - 8:34 a.m. | #

This is terrible news. We also find spider maps invaluable, especially when going for days out, doing random exploring in different parts of London and Greater London.

Neesi | 19.11.20 - 9:15 a.m. | #

Perhaps we should be re-assured to learn that everyone in Streatham "knows where they are going"?

Cau1khead | 19.11.20 - 9:27 a.m. | #

Journey planners assume you know where you want to go; no good for a "gad about". Bus maps offer opportunity - "You could go here". Perhaps they should be charged to the marketing budget!

When I come to London I aim to visit one place, then look at spider maps to see where I could go next.

PeterB | 19.11.20 - 9:35 a.m. | #

In the summer I had to travel Wandsworth to Waterloo late at night. Info around Wandsworth was poor, and once I got to Vauxhall there was nothing. Without the assistance of a very helpful driver I would still be there.

scrumpy | 19.11.20 - 9:41 a.m. | #

The spider maps were useful, but I really miss the four maps of each quarter of London which preceded them. Perhaps TfL should give a contract to Mike Harris to divide his excellent map into four. I use his map, but find it increasingly difficult to read as my eyes get older.

Keith | 19.11.20 - 9:46 a.m. | #

I was map-gazing at NYC this morning when I came across a small island in the Bronx I'd never heard of before. Off to the MTA website and all was clear within a few minutes of perusing their collection of transit maps and schedules. I knew which buses went there, how often, how late at night, which streets they followed and which subway line they linked to (and how long they took to reach the subway stop).

By sheer coincidence I navigated to your post next, and was thus struck by how far our mighty TfL had fallen.

Digital is all well and good, but there is no substitute for the directness of a map or diagram.

Michael T | 19.11.20 - 10:08 a.m. | #

You just made me check my local spider maps. The same route is on 2 of them and yet only one (the older version) shows the correct version of the 533.

I assume TfL have a complete London wide bus map. Otherwise, how do they decide on a city wide bus network? At the very least make that map available for free online.

ap | 19.11.20 - 10:19 a.m. | #

As I've noted before, percentages are not real numbers - so 1% of passengers using a map really means about 300,000 consultations a day. Never let a percentage dictate your activities when large real numbers are involved.

As a native Londoner and bus user since I was a kid, even when knowing the routes, I always relied on maps for alternatives to my next destination or for just a change of mind. I don't have a smartphone, like many others of my (older) generation and don't see why I should be penalised for this, nor made to pay large sums for something which will be obsolete in a few years, to be replaced at even greater cost.

TfL is now so money-driven (not helped by this government's outlook) that anything to be cut is a golden opportunity, no matter how much inconvenience that may cause. Less care for passengers equals fewer users equals reduced means to travel. It'll be out fault for lack of services (especially buses), TfL will ultimately claim because we're not using them, ignoring that they are discouraging use.

Joel | 19.11.20 - 10:27 a.m. | #

This isn't just about money, it's also because of the lack of interest TfL have in buses in general. I suspect there are elements within TfL which see buses as part of the problem rather than the solution, and would prefer we all walk or cycle rather than use them

Mikey C | 19.11.20 - 11:01 a.m. | #

Not sure I realised that spider maps existed with as little as two routes! Those do seem a bit pointless.

But killing off spider maps for more complicated areas is unacceptable.

ADS | Homepage | 19.11.20 - 11:23 a.m. | #

Anybody wanting to write to a GLA member - these are the Transport Committee members. Contact details here.

Alison Moore (chair): Londonwide - Labour
Caroline Pidgeon: Londonwide - Lib Dem
Shaun Bailey: Londonwide - Conservative
Florence Eshalomi: Lambeth/Southwark - Labour
David Kurten: Londonwide - UKIP/Brexit
Joanne McCartney: Enfield/Haringey - Labour
Keith Prince: Havering/Redbridge - Conservative
Caroline Russell: Londonwide - Green Party
Navin Shah: Brent/Harrow - Labour
Tony Devenish: H&F/K&C/Westminster - Conservative

ADS | Homepage | 19.11.20 - 11:40 a.m. | #

That's annoying! They may not be used by the majority of bus users, but for those that do need them, they are invaluable.
What if the mobile battery has died because of all the pictures taken on a gadabout and someone doesn't know how to get back from a far flung borough? Very short-sighted.

Anyone got a link to the Mike Harris maps/site, please? They sound very useful

Cornish Cockney | 19.11.20 - 11:44 a.m. | #

Cornish Cockney - Try this.

ap | 19.11.20 - 11:51 a.m. | #

Mike's map is indeed excellent, and all the money goes to good causes.

Most recent paper copy (June 2019) - £2
Most recent digital download (Dec 2019) - £1

But there have been as many as 49 route changes since the paper map was published, which shows just how fast these things get out of date.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 19.11.20 - 1:00 p.m. | #

Worth a online petition?

Would we hit a key threshold?

MilesT | 19.11.20 - 1:00 p.m. | #

Ever since childhood, living a long bus ride away from schools, the thought of getting onto a bus whose route I do not know has terrified me. I had too many experiences of scheduled services not turning up leaving several hour gaps with no alternatives. I'm certainly not going to get on a bus I can't actually walk the route if necessary. This one thing I am a chicken about.

B | 19.11.20 - 1:04 p.m. | #

Remember that most people reading this blog are “map literate” and have an understanding of transport at a basic level. Maybe the question shouldn’t be ‘where is my map?’ It should be ‘how can we provide information to those who don’t understand transport but might need information?’ The answer isn’t necessarily a complicated spider map. Answers on a page for what is though...

jJj | 19.11.20 - 2:00 p.m. | #

I submitted a public question at last week’s London Travelwatch Board Meeting (held online) which new Transport Commissioner Andy Byford attended asking would he reinstate bus maps. He seemed surprised there weren’t any but pointed out there are 700 bus routes which would make for a large map. I didn’t have the chance to reply and point out more than 700 roads doesn’t stop Geographers or AtoZ producing road maps and in any event that figure includes over 100 school bus routes and the old regime included four quadrant maps of course.

Meanwhile TfL tweeted me back to point out there were spider maps but omitted to highlight this new ridiculous culling policy on their production. I’ll follow up with Mr Byford who seemed a reasonable chap interested in customer service.

Roger French | Homepage | 19.11.20 - 3:44 p.m. | #

Spider maps were how I learned to use buses. I prefer map to app - app requires a specificity in destination that doesn't quite work in the real world. Definitely a downgrade. I say this as a millenial, I suppose I am supposed to use citymapper for everything?

In other bus related news it looks like Heathrow will no longer pay TfL a subsidy to operate the fare-free zone around the airport. This means there will soon be, in effect, no way to access the central terminal area for free (because of course, due to the tunnel, you can't just walk in). Details buried in this website here

E | 19.11.20 - 5:41 p.m. | #

I've just checked the Harrow ones, being an ex-denizen of those parts... and TfL no longer offer maps for Harrow Bus Station! The busiest location in the borough doesn't warrant one, but Pinner Green does... I can't understand that at all

Herned | 19.11.20 - 9:51 p.m. | #

jJj OK, I'll take a crack at the challenge you posed.

An alternative would require some fundamental changes, starting with bus numbers which would need to change to a more helpful taxonomy, embedding some easy to parse helpful info--speed/purpose, general direction, length etc. Maybe some route restructuring as well along the lines of an airline style hub system.

You could have a routing index system as a paper book/index/gazetteer (akin to the Rail Fare calculating route with it's system of assumed routes and vias) so a longer distance journey would be bus to a hub, hub to hub (to hub), then bus from hub, based on looking up departure (region) and destination (region) in a book. Which is what the digital systems do (glossing this massively).

MilesT | 19.11.20 - 11:55 p.m. | #

Such kind of money-oriented mentality is quite unexpected for a place whose council is controlled by a party supposedly against it.

While spider maps as I used to see had its downs (they display London street maps in the middle for bus stops nearby, and IMHO that part's quite hard to read), they are clearly useful and I quite firmly believe is money well-spent. I think they should stay except for remote roads or back alleys where only one or two route(s) pass.

Patrickov | 20.11.20 - 1:23 a.m. | #

Wood Green seems like it ought to meet the criteria - odd that it's been left off the update list.

martin | 20.11.20 - 4:14 a.m. | #

I treasure my Bus Map from 1951, complete with Trolleybus Routes :-) When did they stop doing these maps?

Alex McKenna | 20.11.20 - 8:06 a.m. | #

ap - thanks.

Cornish Cockney | 20.11.20 - 10:35 a.m. | #

Real shame.
A new bus route was introduced in Chislehurt, yet the local bus stops have not been updated.
We are run by people who know the price of everything, but not the value.
TfL happy to sign off Boris Johnson's vanity projects (approaching £1 billion over 8 years), yet somehow cannot find the money to >at least< update PDFs on its website.
I suspect some bean counter asked to find "savings" at TfL realised X amount of money was being paid to some outsourced company to send people around every bus stop and update the timetables and maps . . . so this is why it was cut.
Thanks for posting this.

Le Ver | 20.11.20 - 10:52 a.m. | #

Hi - when we mean the disappearance of the TfL spider bus maps from places that don't meet the criteria, does this mean disappearance on line as well as at bus stops?

All in all very sad: paper bus maps are practical, easy to use plus a reminder that London General Omnibus Company and London Transport after it pioneered public transport map design.

Nick Biskinis | 22.11.20 - 5:57 p.m. | #











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