dg comments

please empty your brain below

Gosh, is it April 1st already?

Harry | 29.03.23 - 7:11 a.m. | #

I hope “Royal Docks” = Dangleway! Hopefully?!

Dan | 29.03.23 - 7:17 a.m. | #

It will be interesting to see the route between Croydon and Bromley: the most direct route has a pesky low bridge at Shortlands.

Robert Butlin | 29.03.23 - 7:48 a.m. | #

Quelle surprise, Diamond Geezer puts the boot into TfL again.

Boris | 29.03.23 - 7:51 a.m. | #

IF it comes to pass it could be a fun day out to try and ride the complete loop - flexing my old git bus pass!

Rob Gullen | 29.03.23 - 8:03 a.m. | #

Adding the X26 and 607 to the "masterplan" shows what an underbaked idea this is. To take the trouble of putting out a liveried bus for publicity gives false impression these additional routes will not be far off from operating in service.

Ken Lynn | 29.03.23 - 8:09 a.m. | #

“Superloop” sounds exactly like the sort of project the previous mayor would have proposed, particularly as it won’t exist for years and won’t be a loop even if it is competed. Ideally using New Routemasters, on a route from Henley via Uxbridge to the Estuary Airport, passing Downing Street, the Garden Bridge, the Dangleway, and the converted stadium and iconic sculpture/helterskelter at the Olympic Park en route. And the return journey? Who cares. Never look back, never complain, never explain.

Andrew | 29.03.23 - 8:10 a.m. | #

More clutter for the Tube map?

Alan JS | 29.03.23 - 8:27 a.m. | #

Sounds like an idea from Mr E. Musk!

Interesting that there's no link with National Rail at Bexleyheath shown on the diagram - and what do the red boxes at Heathrow, Uxbridge, Harrow, White City and Walthamstow mean?

Betterbee | 29.03.23 - 8:28 a.m. | #

A loop that isn't a loop and three routes that aren't even part of the 'loop' lumped together as 'Superloop', a name that doesn't match the reality - what a mess.

The routes themselves, there are a couple of useful links there, but why use North Finchley, first where you going to park all those extra buses, second, the terminus ought to be a station, either East Finchley or Finchley Central for the X34 and New Southgate or Arnos Grove for the X183.

Anyone who remembers the old 144 to Ilford might think that reviving that routeing would be preferable, so at Crooked Billet the X34 continues along the North Circular to Waterworks Corner and picks up the 123.

What's the problem with the Dartford Crossing, Ilford - Romford - Rainham - Wennington - Dartford - Crayford - Bexleyheath.

North Woolwich/Woolwich is another crossing point.

Still Anon | 29.03.23 - 8:43 a.m. | #

At a guess, the red boxes indicate bus stations - looking closely they appear to contain a bus. But an explanation would be nice...

Jeremy GH | 29.03.23 - 8:50 a.m. | #

I think the red boxes are bus stations.

Like the X140, the X26 usually overtakes its counterpart (285) between Kingston and Heathrow (and always overtakes the 111, which is really three routes stuck together and seems to go out of its way to visit everywhere whose name begins with "H").
The improvement in frequency (and possibly some new buses - the existing ones are 14 years old) will be welcome, but I guess it won't happen until the contract comes up for renewal next year.

timbo | 29.03.23 - 8:51 a.m. | #

Locals campaigned for years to get a 4 per hour service on the X26, only to be told that the economic case didn't exist. Indeed, we were lucky to get 2 an hour because that was a bit iffy in the spreadsheets. It was only half hourly on a "social benefits" argument around Heathrow staff.

Still, I suppose I can't complain. For me, the X26 represents a one-stop trip to East Croydon nearly outside my door and it makes many journeys faster via X26 than my local rail stations. (Thameslink services through Finsbury Park make a huge difference in getting to North London)

Chz | 29.03.23 - 9:08 a.m. | #

I can only speak for the N/NW part of the proposed 'Superloop, but it seems strange that the route follows the current ULEZ boundary, as you point out.

I think it should run further north, nearer to the M25 than the A406, and create new links.

BP | 29.03.23 - 9:26 a.m. | #

Minor correction, the 183 runs to Golders Green, not Brent Cross.

dg writes: fixed, thanks.

I agree with BP, much of the route isn't in outer London at all. Hendon is in Zone 3, Arnos Grove in Zone 4 and further round, Walthamstow is not only in Zone 3, but comfortably within the CURRENT ULEZ boundary.

Mikey C | 29.03.23 - 9:32 a.m. | #

SUPERLOO

dg writes: been there done that.

Caroline | 29.03.23 - 9:38 a.m. | #

"They'll be additional services rather than replacements."
"Four of which already exist."

Come on TfL, it can't be both.

Stuart R | 29.03.23 - 10:25 a.m. | #

There’s a purple roundel at royal docks but there is no purple station with that name.

Kev | 29.03.23 - 10:35 a.m. | #

"Is it a Tube? Is it a train? No it's....(LBTG roundeled) Superloop!"

Selfishly, doubling the X26 frequency will be welcome. But otherwise...

David B | 29.03.23 - 10:36 a.m. | #

Chance missed, they could have gone for "Super Looper" and would have had a ready-made hymn to be played on the upper deck throughout:

Tonight the super looper lines are gonna find me
Driving into the sun

commonliner | 29.03.23 - 10:38 a.m. | #

The Superloop map shows the 607 and X140 meeting at Hayes & Harlington Station, but they don't currently, they meet at "The Grapes". Maybe they plan to double-run the 607 to the Station, but that would be a long detour for through passengers.

Jeremy | 29.03.23 - 10:39 a.m. | #

As you surmise, almost certainly an opening shot in Sadiq’s bid to remain mayor in the teeth of opposition from newly-ULEZed boroughs. Wonder how many of the petrolheads in Bexley, Bromley, etc, will really give up car use to take a Superloop bus anyway? After all, they previously scuppered Ken’s GLC “Fares Fair” initiative and would far rather have a Tory mayor who’ll just rescind the move, as Johnson did with the western congestion charge zone as soon as he was elected.

Labourer | 29.03.23 - 10:42 a.m. | #

As others have said, this is not really serving OUTER London terribly much, is it?

dg writes: regionally speaking, it very much is.

Let alone cross-boundary journeys between Greater London and neighbouring areas. When you consider that some people living just outside Greater London rely on services in outer London (such as hospitals), and the fact that the scrappage scheme, freedom pass, and other benefits are for residents of Greater London only...

Air quality is a serious issue, but there need to be carrots, not just sticks. Public transport must be affordable, convenient, fast, and reliable throughout the ULEZ zone AND into neighbouring areas. And Sadiq needs to include neighbouring councils in his plans, rather than undermine decades of successful cross-border co-operation in transport matters (Surrey is taking TfL to court, Essex & Kent are refusing to erect ULEZ warning signs).

anon | 29.03.23 - 11:12 a.m. | #

I see that Callum got an invite to the launch.

Rob Healy | 29.03.23 - 11:16 a.m. | #

Prediction: this (the 726 apart) will last about as long as the express 616 route down the Edgware Road of the 1970s.

More expensive, but the orbital tram network that has been built around the suburbs beyond Paris will serve a purpose, buses like these, though....will get stuck in traffic. And without the obsessive focus on such matters like that provided by a former mayor (not Boris), they will fade away, like everything associated with TfL has tended to fade away under incompetent or disengaged mayoral direction

Dominic | 29.03.23 - 11:20 a.m. | #

Who said the routes are going to be numbered in the X series?

Perhaps there will be a new series of numbers for Loopers?
Somebody said the 500 series will soon be free. Or perhaps they will be numbered SL1, etc, etc.

I'm not very optimistic about their success and I'm old enough to remember the StarBus.

Steve | Homepage | 29.03.23 - 11:20 a.m. | #

commonliner: if TfL need a Superloop theme tune, they could look closer to home and adapt Chas & Dave instead: "Super loopy nuts are we / We're all super loopy"

Andrew | 29.03.23 - 11:33 a.m. | #

At present that loop, serving all the points shown on the map, can be done using nine buses and a tram
269, 119, (tram from East to West Croydon), X26, X140, 183, 125, 34, 123, and 147 (I'm assuming the Royal Docks route will serve Custom House given the presence of a purple roundel)

Combined journey time would be 7 hours 16 minutes - probably between eight and nine allowing for time to change buses.
You might save some time by using the 221 to cut the corner between the 125 and the 34.

timbo | 29.03.23 - 11:57 a.m. | #

My list for the consultation
* interchange with Thameslink (e.g Brent Cross West--new housing, but south also)
* Maybe fund West London Orbital train as part of this
* Express to DLR/X-rail in Southeast
* multimodal local fares--a few local stops on the tube/train/DLR connections in corridor (extend hopper, also allow concession passes in peak on tube/train locally)

MilesT | 29.03.23 - 12:06 p.m. | #

No new bus provision for those who have to drive into the new ULEZ area from the shires, can’t apply for the car scrappage scheme, and are not eligible to vote the mayor out. The expanded ULEZ is becoming more like his poll tax, as opposed to a new GLC Fares Fare. PS - Steven Norris proposed express buses in the 2000 mayoral election.

Kim | 29.03.23 - 12:12 p.m. | #

Timbo- the X26 stops at East Croydon, so no need to use the tram.

Jeremy | 29.03.23 - 12:16 p.m. | #

Extend ULEZ to the North and South Circulars: no riots.
Extend ULEZ to the edge of London: end of the world, apparently.

Maxwell | 29.03.23 - 12:16 p.m. | #

Jeremy
I stand corrected - make that 7h 4m

timbo | 29.03.23 - 1:05 p.m. | #

As a regular user of the X26 my experience is that buses are consistently heaving with passengers at all times of the day. Often difficult to get a seat. Even the 0415 journey from East Croydon is heavily loaded. A doubling of frequency would be most welcome.

SW London passenger | 29.03.23 - 2:06 p.m. | #

For the benefit of people who've said "it doesn't really serve Outer London, does it?" here's a map of Outer London.

diamond geezer | Homepage | 29.03.23 - 2:41 p.m. | #

I have a dumb-American question here.....What is the ULEZ?

dg writes: see here.

Steven | 29.03.23 - 3:38 p.m. | #

Your yellow route marker brings back fond memories of the Happy Eater logo.

spankybackpack | 29.03.23 - 3:49 p.m. | #

Given that any substantial changes can only happen at contract renewal, I can see this taking a while to be rolled out.
Contract renewals are due every five years, but can be extended by two - next due on the routes closest to the new routes (and therefore likely to be affected, as the 140 was when the X140 was introduced)

X26: April 2024 (award due May 2023, presumably with the new 4bph frequency)
123: March 2024
34: November 2024
X68: March 2025
269: June 2025
607: April 2026 (inc 2yr extension granted recently)
X140: Sep 2026
183: Sept 2026
119: Aug 2027
147: May 2028 (already awarded for May 2023)

Of course some of the "Superloop" could be introduced without changing local services, but in many cases terminal arrangements will need to be modified to provide space for the new routes to lay.

timbo | 29.03.23 - 4:52 p.m. | #

A shame the map omits the little IKEA symbol next to Croydon.

heath-rennf | 29.03.23 - 5:16 p.m. | #

The X140 is a fine example of an orbital express route done properly. Good interchanges with several key transport nodes, frequent, substantially faster than the ordinary routes, nice new electric buses. X26 also good at 4bph. If the new ones can aspire to similar utility then I'd say the orbital connectivity branding has value, notwithstanding the more exotic hype. Although there is perhaps also room for more radial express routes on underserved corridors, with different branding.

Strabismus | 29.03.23 - 5:35 p.m. | #

could have just named it "Red Arrow"
Now there's an idea...

Johno | 29.03.23 - 6:02 p.m. | #

Plans for orbital express buses in Northwest London predate Boris, back in the last millennium. See here.

Basil Jet | 29.03.23 - 7:30 p.m. | #

Interesting to see a Conservative on the London Assembly rushing to denounce this, probably forgetting that orbital express buses were promised but not delivered by the previous (Conservative) Mayor. So he's criticising a Labour Mayor for delivering something that the Tories had promised but failed to deliver. Odd!

Dominic, the 616 you mention lasted for more than a decade.

Malc M | 29.03.23 - 7:44 p.m. | #

I have the feeling this will be one of those things that will be quietly forgotten about in a few years time.

Tom | 29.03.23 - 8:05 p.m. | #

I'm coming at it from a North and East London perspective I guess, but on your map a significant amount of the red section within the new bus routes is already within the ULEZ, and thus not needing to be "won over".

This is especially true in East London where the entire route is within the current ULEZ, so of no benefit to the new areas joining the scheme. Havering isn't served at all, Barking and Redbridge barely so.

Mikey C | 29.03.23 - 8:42 p.m. | #

Malc M, the 616 may have lasted 11 years (from 1970), but only for the first four of them was it an all-day (Mon-Fri) service, then switching to peak hours only.

(Looking at its stopping points, it's rather less of an express than I thought it had been too)

While it's East London counterpart, the 615 barely lasted a few days over a year

Dominic H | 29.03.23 - 9:30 p.m. | #

Thanks for following up on my Dumb-American question. Being of the same era as you, I often forget that the answer to most questions is a google search away...(old man voice) "back in our day you had to go to the library to learn new things....up hill...both ways!"

Steven | 30.03.23 - 3:16 p.m. | #

To me, the average Joe, it doesn't really easily solve the problem of South London being really badly connected. Getting from one place to another via public transport is a mess of bus connections or convoluted train/bus/whatever combinations. Central London is probably the easiest part for me to reach!!

Emma | 30.03.23 - 5:44 p.m. | #

One of the local Croydon news sites has superimposed the Superloop routings onto the National Rail map.

dg writes: No, they've nabbed a TfL employee's map off Twitter.

Rob Healy | 30.03.23 - 9:47 p.m. | #

I'm guessing the reason why there is no railway sign at Bexleyheath is that the station is nowhere near the town centre where I'm assuming it will terminate. It's a nice idea but needs more thought like extending from Bexleyheath to Abbey Wood and the Elizabeth line. On the plus side it's got the anti-ulez crowd foaming at the mouth.

Kathryn | Homepage | 31.03.23 - 8:44 p.m. | #

I'm surprised to see the number of unconvinced commenters here. The Superloop is a brilliant idea, in fact. Take it from me as someone from West London: the 607 is extremely useful. The express route quickly gets you through Uxbridge Road, overtaking the normal bus routes on the journey. It's done so for decades.

And don't get me started on the X140, launched fairly recently (2019). The 140 was always very crowded and you can see why: a key suburban orbital route through West to North West at Harrow. The X140 has helped alleviate the pressure on 140 while providing a fast, express connection on this corridor. It is fantastic.

For years I've hoped to see this happen and finally it's here, long overdue but whatever, it's finally happening, express bus services across London. I guarantee this scheme will help our bus services, with or without ULEZ. One of the best things to have come out of Mayor Khan.

blath | 31.03.23 - 10:54 p.m. | #

To think they could have called it Red Express, Red Line, even Red Arrow. Instead we get the juvenile Fruityloop. I don’t think even Best Impressions would have come up with that - plus a version of the roundel that breaks every design convention going back to the 1970s or even earlier!

Kim | 03.04.23 - 5:25 p.m. | #

"or Carshalton to Feltham because it already exists,"
X26 does not serve Feltham.

Dstock7080 | 19.04.23 - 3:27 p.m. | #

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