please empty your brain below
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I understand why it might be an issue at Farringdon and Abbey Wood where people might be leaving a TFL service and continuing on a non-TFL service, but I don't get why its an issue at Custom House where you are simply changing from one TFL service (DLR) to another (Elizabeth line).
Stephen | 28.05.22 - 7:18 a.m. | #
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This feels like quite the oversight. If you have to put up a poster to explain, then someone's not done their job properly.
The one oddity I've found so far was changing from the Central line to Crossrail at Tottenham Court Road - the signs directed me via the ticket hall, where posters told me I had to touch out on one gateline and in on the other, 'to ensure [I] paid the correct fare.' Except it appears to have made no difference, and Stratford to Canary Wharf only cost me £1.60, even though I went via zone 1.
martin | 28.05.22 - 7:22 a.m. | #
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I regularly forget to touch out on the Oyster validatlors at Finsbury Park when I change from tube to National Rail, because the readers there are quite hidden and I’m rushing for the train.
But it’s no problem at all. Half the time the system works out automatically that I’ve changed at Finsbury Park and the rest of the time I just tell TfL via the website.
It’s extraordinary that even this tried and tested method for fixing missing Oyster taps doesn’t work at these stations.
Dan | 28.05.22 - 7:30 a.m. | #
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The lack of validators at Abbey Wood is to prevent people tapping out and then getting the rest of their journey on SouthEastern free. Forcing people to go up to the gate line to tap out means they then need a valid ticket to re-enter.
Robbob | 28.05.22 - 7:35 a.m. | #
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When TfL install pink validators, is there any actual software difference in their functionality to yellow validators, or is the only difference the pink plastic? My suspicious is the latter.
Dan | 28.05.22 - 7:36 a.m. | #
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I’ve had this happening at Clapham Junction when coming from home with my oyster to take a train on a paper ticket. I had to go to the entrance to tap out and it took some time to explain to the staff what I was doing, and also the time to walk through the whole station. Now I’ve learned and just buy a ticket starting at my home station but sometimes it ends up being more expensive as my children would travel that leg of the journey for free in their zip oysters but not on paper tickets.
Renata | 28.05.22 - 7:48 a.m. | #
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I'm flummoxed. The definition of a Gateline, special or not, is that it has ticket readers, so it must connect into the Oyster system.
Are there different gatelines for all the Elizabeth:Other-TFL interchanges elsewhere? Do they invoke OSI-type fares? Is there an equivalent segregation for the DLR? I don't remember having to use a validator at Bank when switching to/from the DLR.
One of your well-researched, detailed articles on fares would certainly enlighten me.
Nick K | 28.05.22 - 8:04 a.m. | #
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Did the same at Custom House - and got a maximum journey fare.
Was refunded the next day, but the system really should be clever enough to realise DLR station > Custom House EL > another station is one continuous journey…
Hopefully they fix it soon!
James Scantlebury | 28.05.22 - 8:41 a.m. | #
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At Custom House did you tell staff "Do you know who I am"?
Mr Lugubrious | 28.05.22 - 9:01 a.m. | #
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A huge advantage of the Freedom Pass is being able to ignore all this hassle when travelling within the TfL zone.
Keith | 28.05.22 - 9:12 a.m. | #
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At Custom House it has nothing to do with whether a service is TfL, it is whether you are "in" or "out" of the system. The DLR has no barriers. Coming from DLR, your Oyster is "in" the system but you are physically "out" when you reach the Crossrail barriers.
James's suggestion would work in the DLR to Crossrail direction (Custom House entry gateline set to "continuation entry" from any DLR touch in), however, in the Crossrail to DLR direction, once you exit the Crossrail gateline you are "out". If you board a DLR without touching in coming from Crossrail, nobody can tell the difference from someone who has boarded from the street without touching in, so there needs to be a DLR validator after the Crossrail gateline.
It's a bit like Wimbledon except the DLR station is outside the gates - that's why you must touch the tram validator on the platforms, even though you had to touch in to enter Wimbledon.
TCR is a bit odd because it looks like there are two sets of escalators and they didn't (for whatever reason) fit a single gateline in front of them. However you can avoid the gateline on a Central<>Crossrail interchange. by going to the Northern line and then walking along the platform.
John | 28.05.22 - 9:18 a.m. | #
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Dan - if you need to go onto a website after half your journeys then I wouldn't describe that as "not a problem at all". It's one thing if a validator is available but you forget to use it; here a validator is unavailable.
Yes, there is a slight difference in software functionality, pink validators do not end journeys (at least on Oyster, although they will start a journey if you hadn't touched in). For contactless it probably just records the card number. It gets more complex if you use a Key smartcard.
John | 28.05.22 - 9:25 a.m. | #
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Hi TfL bigwigs. Once again Londoners and those living beyond urge you to employ DG to do pre-checks, write and install correct signs and explain to station staff how things work. You’d be saving TfL a lot of time, money and negative press by doing so. Thanks.
me | 28.05.22 - 9:47 a.m. | #
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What a complete balls-up. Hopefully Mr Can-do Byford must be on the case, though they certainly had plenty of time to to have sorted it out properly in the first place.
NickW | 28.05.22 - 9:50 a.m. | #
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Thank goodness for paper Travelcards.
Man of Kent | 28.05.22 - 9:51 a.m. | #
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Thank you, and to add to the general sum of knowledge I can confirm that on two DLR > EL journeys this week I have ignored the DLR tap out. The first occasion, on Wednesday heading from Gallions Reach to Abbey Wood, through ignorance and having already reached the gateline; the second, last night, heading for TCR, out of a sense of experimentation, and also the mid-platform escalator being entirely closed due to having more passengers or something.
On both occasions I was charged exactly as expected, normal fare that you would find on the Single Fare Finder page. I can only assume that the software is cleverer than the people who put the notices and staff there thought it was.
Quizzical Eyebrow | Homepage | 28.05.22 - 10:12 a.m. | #
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Hmm. Custom House was definitely planned to have validators for leaving the DLR; possibly got overlooked in the much extended gap between planning and opening. It was still going to be confusing but at least it would have worked.
The other two are no different from changing at somewhere like East Croydon where there are no yellow readers inside the gates. Not ideal but yellow readers just encourages people to skip the fare on part of the journey. Of course if fare policy was coherent then there'd be no financial saving in doing the two legs separately anyway so people from further out would just use one ticket throughout.
Andrew S | 28.05.22 - 10:19 a.m. | #
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John, that explanation makes sense that yes tapping out of Crossrail to get onto the DLR is the bigger issue.
Dan, there is a slightly similar issue at Canary Wharf changing from the DLR to Jubilee, it is possible to take the stairs from Heron Quays and not notice the validaters there and then tap into Jubilee line and that can trigger a maximum fare apparently.
Jon | 28.05.22 - 10:42 a.m. | #
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According to Steve Chambers on Twitter, this should never have been an issue as the DfT had assured that smart cards would be valid on the entire network by this point (way back in the early planning of Crossrail). So presumably the intricacies of these interchanges were considered a non-issue at the time and never re-examined. Not an excuse, though.
Ted | 28.05.22 - 10:42 a.m. | #
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Yes pink validators do behave differently than yellow. Oysterfares website has covered this at various points, the key point of difference is you cannot end a journey on a pink.
The validator setup at Stratford is not ideal either when changing between Overground and National rail on a journey that needs a separate rail ticket for whatever reasons. At least for some interchanges within the station, the yellow validators needed are not located as obviously as one might like, the pink validators on the Overground platforms are too obvious for the unwary, and the signage is also lacking. (Yellow validators are hidden in one of the subways and also hidden on platform 9/10 based on my specific journey needs)
MilesT | 28.05.22 - 11:14 a.m. | #
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The DLR-Purple Train (💜🚆) issue at Custom House is akin to the DLR-c2c issue that occurs at Limehouse for people using the upper level interchange. If you don’t touch out from the DLR before touching in on the c2c gates, you get an unresolved journey (same in the reverse direction).
Incidentally, I’m surprised that TfL are using the term ‘tapped out’ on their poster as it’s normally ’touched out’ but that is just me being pedantic!
Rob Healy | Homepage | 28.05.22 - 2:28 p.m. | #
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Perhaps “touching in” and “touching out” is frowned upon in a Covid world.
me again | 28.05.22 - 2:58 p.m. | #
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The poster at Custom House says "tap" while the poster at Farringdon says "touch", so take your pick!
StevenS | 28.05.22 - 4:40 p.m. | #
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Oh wow. I was similarly dissatisfied when I first changed from mainline to metro in Sunderland. They share the same platform, but the POP card reader (Oyster equivalent in Tyne & Wear) is upstairs! And it's not just that, but they stop at opposite ends of the very long platform, the metro using the northernmost bit, the mainline the southern end.
The timetable is designed to allow 2 minutes to change, or else you have to wait 15 minutes. So in these 2 minutes you have to run along the platform, up the stairs, touch in, run down again, and all the way long the platform to catch your connection.
I always thought it was much better in London, where there were Oyster validators on the platform for easy change.
Greg S | 28.05.22 - 5:06 p.m. | #
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There is an item on the BBC News website's London page that TfL are going to install 'readers' at Farringdon.
dg writes: see also Tom Edwards' tweet halfway down the post.
John Simmons | 28.05.22 - 8:51 p.m. | #
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I am pretty sure Custom House could be resolved by setting the gateline to "Continuous Entry", meaning if you are already in the system the journey is simply continued. This is done at Limehouse NR, for example, as well as places like Finsbury Park.
Tom K | 28.05.22 - 9:52 p.m. | #
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I thought the system was set up to automatically complete journeys where they are within certain time limits i.e. if you did Beckton-Custom House-TCR within 30 minutes or whatever, it links those together regardless of intermediate touches in/out.
Herned | 28.05.22 - 10:59 p.m. | #
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This isn’t a new problem. Years ago, I tapped my Oyster travelcard out of the H&C line at the gate on the footbridge over the Paddington mainline platforms, giving me direct access to a platform to help a friend with heavy luggage coming off a train from Bristol. I then found I couldn’t exit through the gateline onto the concourse; a Nat Rail person took much convincing that I hadn’t just got off the Bristol train without a valid ticket, while I pointed out that the card data would show I’d left the Underground just a few minutes before and I was eventually let through. OK, my manoeuvre probably wasn’t very common, but it wasn’t unreasonable or fraudulent. What it really showed was how parallel systems need to be configured to talk to each other when there’s overlapping public access to different jurisdictions on the same station.
Labourer | 29.05.22 - 12:02 a.m. | #
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Freedom passes are now valid up to Reading (provided that you travel on a Liz Line train and do it after 9am). But they have forgotten to program the gates at Reading to let you in and out of the station.
Harry | 29.05.22 - 6:32 a.m. | #
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A Freedom Pass is seen by the system as an Oyster all zones travelcard. Reading is outside the Oyster fares zone and so the gates are unable to read Oyster. Staff also have to let Freedom Pass holders through the gates at Shenfield.
JohnC | 29.05.22 - 12:44 p.m. | #
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Such utter incompetence has one positive effect - I can almost believe it is actually "signalling" problems that is holding up the through-running of Crossrail trains for TWO YEARS
SteveP | 05.06.22 - 2:36 p.m. | #
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